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Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

blog.willemmelching.nl

101–110 of 174 posts

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#101

>> Only try this on an actual car if you know what you’re doing. Even though only two very small patches are made to the model specific calibration values, making changes to your EPS might have unintended consequences. The author has no idea what he's doing, or more specifically what hazards might be lurking right under his nose. I worked in EPS for 6 years and it's all really cool stuff right up until you download c…

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Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#102
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern is if the engineers were qualified and allowed to follow proper protocol for designing safety critical systems.

Also consider the budgets these engineers have to work with now. If cars had an average unit cost measured in 7-9 figures (i.e. like a Boeing 777), I would have substantially more trust in everything involved.

There's not a simple relationship between cost of the end product and the budget for developing safety-critical systems. There are only ~1600 777s ever built. The development costs for automotive systems are amortized over millions of units.

I have no idea what the budgets actually are, and it's fine if you don't trust certain kinds of automation in cars. In fact my 2020 Toyota with lane-keeping assistance tried to drive me off the freeway at 80mph three times last week. (I probably should have stopped trying it after the second time, but I was kind of morbidly fascinated at that point. As it steered me firmly towards the grassy median, it also started beeping urgently to tell me that it wasn't a good idea.)

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hundreds of Megabytes? That’s a big number to you? Did you step out of a time warp from 1990? Also you are surprisingly quite clueless about basic crypto if you think storage is the biggest issue with practically using one time pads (though it is indeed one). I’m pretty sure even the Wikipedia article can explain this so no reason to spoon feed it here.

> Hundreds of Megabytes? That’s a big number to you? If you only have a hundred MB of data to send… a hundred MB of key is sufficient to use as a one-time pad. Until digitisation the military literally did encryption over radios using physical pads - everyone carried a big one-time-pad (just a few tens of KB though). It was done as a lookup table rather than an XOR though.

The pad system used by the military predigitisation[0] was a set of keys to input into a keystream generator rather than a strict one time pad style system, except for very specific and limited espionage use cases. And it wouldn't be one time, it'd be on the order of a daily key rotation with key reuse (with maybe a few chosen per day depending on classification level).

[0] I'm assuming we mean computerized here. Old school cipher machines of the type of the ENIGMA and M-209 were arguably digital machines, just base ~26.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#104
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far electric vehicles are getting worse not better, because they're less regulated on things like OBD access. And manufactures see them as a chance to make an always connected car that phones home. Tesla was first but everyone else is copying them now.

My concern is that all vehicles are becoming more and more surveilled, transmitting hugely personal data. Once level 4 centralized control is possible I predict pre permissioned requested travel will quickly follow. We urgently need a new generation of very basic transportation devices. The 3rd world relies on Toyo HiLuxes etc which are still easy to keep running. LandRover used to be all over the third world because…

Individuals are not powerless in this fight. We can use democracy to try to maintain our freedom. The people of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts recently voted to enact the following:

> “Question 1 (2020) required manufacturers that sell motor vehicles equipped with telematics systems to install a standardized open data platform beginning with model year 2022. The initiative defined telematics systems as a system in a motor vehicle that collects information generated by the operation of the vehicle that is then transmitted through wireless communications to a remote receiving point where it is stored. The measure allowed vehicle owners to access telematics system data through a mobile device application and to give consent for independent repair facilities to access that data and send commands to the system for repair, maintenance, and diagnostic testing.”

https://ballotpedia.org/Massachusetts_Question_1,_%22Right_t...

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#105

> The electronics seemed to be fabricated using bare dies attached to some substrate, probably to lower cost and improve reliability at higher temperatures. The board is made up of two parts, a low-power part with the CPU and CAN transceivers, and some high-power part with 6 MOSFETs forming a three phase H-Bridge. > https://blog.willemmelching.nl/images/vw/IMG_3181.jpg It doesn't really look cheap to me (large machin…

I agree but if that was in the world of consumer electronic it would have been frowned for repairability.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#106
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> XOR with very large keys is how critical military encryption systems such as radios work. Is it that large keys are factors of very large prime numbers so that to know the keys you will need a very powerful computer?

There are only two factors of any prime number, large or otherwise: 1 and the number. But even correcting to what you must have meant to suggest doesn't make sense.

Sorry I meant something else, can't wrap my head around to recall the name...

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy actually doing the modding and putting his butt in the seat has far more skin in the game than anyone who's second guessing him here.

Well, except you know... every pedestrian (and possibly driver) in his neighborhood. I'm being half serious - this seems harmless enough, but where do you draw the line? I'm all for the fun of reverse engineering but maybe keep that shit off public roads.

I couldn't care less. People hacking up things are a rounding error compared to the rest of the motoring public. If your vehicle is capable of meeting the performance expectations of everyone else I don't care what you drive. If your horse and buggy, ebike conversion, etc. can do highway speed and get there within the distance of the merge lane then feel free to ride that crap on the interstate. Likewise I don't see why anyone should be disallowed from driving heavy equipment on slow city and residential streets where it can keep up.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#108
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far electric vehicles are getting worse not better, because they're less regulated on things like OBD access. And manufactures see them as a chance to make an always connected car that phones home. Tesla was first but everyone else is copying them now.

My concern is that all vehicles are becoming more and more surveilled, transmitting hugely personal data. Once level 4 centralized control is possible I predict pre permissioned requested travel will quickly follow. We urgently need a new generation of very basic transportation devices. The 3rd world relies on Toyo HiLuxes etc which are still easy to keep running. LandRover used to be all over the third world because…

>> I predict pre permissioned requested travel will quickly follow.

Excuse me sir, Did you upload your drive path to NHTSA today? No that will be a $300 fine...

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#109

>> Only try this on an actual car if you know what you’re doing. Even though only two very small patches are made to the model specific calibration values, making changes to your EPS might have unintended consequences. The author has no idea what he's doing, or more specifically what hazards might be lurking right under his nose. I worked in EPS for 6 years and it's all really cool stuff right up until you download c…

and it promptly turns left all the way to the stop the first time you touch the wheel.

I bet many have had nearly the same experience with rebuilding a power steering gear... yet that's no justification for taking away control from the things you own.

"Life is risk, risk is life."

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#110
post #9

This may go without saying, but a word of caution for anyone who wants to try this themselves: doing any sort of automated scanning of ECU hardware (e.g. the equivalent of trying to find undocumented opcodes in a CPU) stands a good chance of bricking the hardware (permanently), so plan to buy several of them if you want/need to go that route.

What does it mean to permanently brick the hardware?

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