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Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

blog.willemmelching.nl

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Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#31

Post by bob1029 »

Veritio wrote: post #21
bob1029 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will never purchase a vehicle for my own purposes that does not use hydraulics for brakes and steering. Putting a computer between my foot/hands and the physics unfolding in front of me is a total non-starter.

Do you consider an automatic emergency break as less reliable than it helps? Because we do have a lot of numbers on cars were there is a computer in-between. Which should indicate to me that it is safer to drive with one instead of without one. Like just yesterday (I'm driving a new car) I thought about emergency breaking automatic vs. manual and I actually feel safer knowing that the car can potentially break faster…

> I thought about emergency breaking automatic vs. manual and I actually feel safer knowing that the car can potentially break faster.

For me, the knowledge that some other engineer designed a system that is a complete black box (from my perspective), which can arbitrarily stop my car with incredible braking force is terrifying.

What happens if the emergency braking system decides to have a bug while you are exiting the freeway at 75mph?

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#32

Post by markus_zhang »

pd0wm wrote: post #30
markus_zhang wrote: post #24

One question: in part 2 it shows that Ghidra is able to produce disassembly from machine code, does that mean Ghidra knows the instruction set V850 uses?

Ghidra uses an intermediate language called p-code. When defining the CPU opcodes (and how to parse them), you also write a small snippet of p-code that represent that instruction. This makes the decompiler architecture agnostic. Example: https://github.com/NationalSecurityAgency/ghidra/blob/master...

Thanks, I see. So it means anyone can add any architecture to Ghidra.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#33

Post by throwaway0a5e »

marcodiego wrote: post #11

Power Steering ECU... this things determines how the driving wheel makes the car turn. Safety issues must be considered.

The guy actually doing the modding and putting his butt in the seat has far more skin in the game than anyone who's second guessing him here.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#35

Post by tonyedgecombe »

ugjka wrote: post #26
lillecarl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing the amount of part theft in Stockholm I understand why they do it. Particularly steering wheels, they steal them and send them to the baltics where they put them in vehicles where the airbag has fired.

Then you solve the problem in the baltics, not use it as excuse to turn your cars into "iphones"

What are you proposing, that Sweden invades in order to stop car part theft?

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#36

Post by [deleted] »

kyazawa wrote: post #29
bob1029 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will never purchase a vehicle for my own purposes that does not use hydraulics for brakes and steering. Putting a computer between my foot/hands and the physics unfolding in front of me is a total non-starter.

With EPAS your steering wheel still physically steers the wheel via the rack and pinion gears. With ABS and ESC, most cars on the road today have a computer involved in the braking system. It seems pretty safe.

[deleted]

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#37

Post by ptsneves »

chrisseaton wrote: post #6
ptsneves wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One interesting difference and trend in automotive control modules (also mentioned in Willem's fantastic write-up) is that many EU modules started adding signature checking and encrypted updates in the late 2000s Do you mean the XOR encryption used? As someone working on the embedded linux(!= than embedded MCU) side i was very surprised to find such a crude "encryption" scheme employed. On the other hand i reckon t…

> Do you mean the XOR encryption used? As someone working on the embedded linux(!= than embedded MCU) side i was very surprised to find such a crude "encryption" scheme employed. I'm not a cryptographer - but I don't think there's anything wrong with XOR encryption, and I'm not sure why you're putting it in scare-quotes - XOR with a sufficiently large key is absolutely fine, and with a one-time pad is unbreakable. XO…

The article's XOR key was 0xFF :) Definitely out of the sufficiently large key range.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#38

Post by monocasa »

chrisseaton wrote: post #6
ptsneves wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One interesting difference and trend in automotive control modules (also mentioned in Willem's fantastic write-up) is that many EU modules started adding signature checking and encrypted updates in the late 2000s Do you mean the XOR encryption used? As someone working on the embedded linux(!= than embedded MCU) side i was very surprised to find such a crude "encryption" scheme employed. On the other hand i reckon t…

> Do you mean the XOR encryption used? As someone working on the embedded linux(!= than embedded MCU) side i was very surprised to find such a crude "encryption" scheme employed. I'm not a cryptographer - but I don't think there's anything wrong with XOR encryption, and I'm not sure why you're putting it in scare-quotes - XOR with a sufficiently large key is absolutely fine, and with a one-time pad is unbreakable. XO…

I think they mean using XOR with a repeated fixed tiny key _as_ the stream cipher, rather than just using XOR to mix the keystream and the plaintext.

These ECUs aren't using one time pads with key lengths the same size as the firmware. I doubt they're using one time pads at all, which would necessitate each version of firmware using a different key.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#39

Post by lillecarl »

ugjka wrote: post #26
lillecarl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing the amount of part theft in Stockholm I understand why they do it. Particularly steering wheels, they steal them and send them to the baltics where they put them in vehicles where the airbag has fired.

Then you solve the problem in the baltics, not use it as excuse to turn your cars into "iphones"

Not our jurisdiction, and what could car manufacturers do?

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#40

Post by natch »

ugjka wrote: post #26
lillecarl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing the amount of part theft in Stockholm I understand why they do it. Particularly steering wheels, they steal them and send them to the baltics where they put them in vehicles where the airbag has fired.

Then you solve the problem in the baltics, not use it as excuse to turn your cars into "iphones"

You really think that is a realistic goal, for the car companies to solve crime in other countries?

Just as Apple can’t prevent abusive people from having the desire to track, stalk, and creep on their own family members, I don’t think you have a practical outlook or plan here.

The manufacturers do what they can, and they deserve all our respect for that, not derision.

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