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Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#81
I will probably attract a lot of downvotes for this, but are programmers really as innocent as to be not even mentioned among the possible culprits?

I suspect that there is some sort of short-circuit between the clients (those that ask for features) and the programmers (both the "software architects" and those that actually implement the apps/sites).

Speaking of Government issues (in these times of COVID-19) there are certain categories here in Italy (restaurants, hotels, cinemas and similar places) that have by Law the need to check customers' "green pass" (officially EU Digital COVID Certificate (DCC)).

This can be done exclusively through an app (Apple or Android) written by what is loosely the IT branch of the government.

What the app does is simply scanning the QR code and check the validity of the pass (by some algorithmn and checking also a sort of blacklist).

There is no technical reason on earth why this could have not been made OS/device independent, or at least the Irish (EIRE) one is a "normal" site[1] that works on any recent browser.

Questions are:

1) was it the government asking for a dual (iOS/Android) app (and no site)?

2) or was the SOGEI (the government connected IT firm that wrote the apps[2]) to decide to NOT make such a site?

[1] https://app.digitalcovidcertchecker.gov.ie/

[2] BTW the actual Android app at least - cannot say the iOS one - needs a relatively recent Android version, cannot remember exactly, probably 8, so that using your old phone wouldn't do.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#82
post #7

Not a main factor but a factor is 'always the latest tech' issue. Most banks and airlines I use rewrote their perfectly fine and fast sites and apps to reactjs and now they seriously suck. This is not the fault of react but more of this idea of tech people that everything has to be new which means we don't have 10+ year experience in it and the results just take more work to get right (despite what everyone says here…

> Most banks and airlines I use rewrote their perfectly fine and fast sites and apps to reactjs and now they seriously suck. Nostalgia might be staining your view here… I don’t remember any airline or banking apps that have ever been “perfectly fine and fast”.

FWIW, Dollar Bank had one of the earlier web banking sites and it was perfectly serviceable. I often wondered why larger banks couldn't do it as well. ING Direct (before it became CapitalOne 360) was pretty handy too, and while the CapitalOne site is slower and more SPA-like, it mostly does what I expect.

American Express, on the other hand, is the real WTF.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#83

Unregulated winner take all effects. Too many acquisitions - not enough competition. Giant companies providing market leading services at 3+ layers, increasing startup costs, enabling anti competitive behaviour. However I believe the true reason is geopolitical. The entire digital market is simply the best espionage system. If the US govt had a better way to dominate other countries, they would use it instead, and th…

Am I understanding correctly that you think that, for example, ‘sign up for our newsletter!’ modals exist to allow the US government to get more data on people?

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#84

I'll suggest over reliance on dependencies on the frontend. The thing about a dependency frontend module, is that it often brings in some really cool stuff, like animations and attractive design elements, but also introduces inflexibility. You have to use the supplied design elements, and you can't modify the animations. This gets compounded, when you aggregate dependencies. Dependencies aren't bad. They are how we g…

We used to present our designer with a particular webshop, when he asked what sites we frequently used and enjoyed. That site had made one change to their layout in 12 years, they added round corners. That site was easy to navigate, everything was a simple as you can imaging, no weird icons, just text that said: "In stock/out of stock". The thing is, the site looked old, and dated, so everything good was dismissed along with the styling.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#85
Firstly - software is too cheap to ship, and has removed the economic incentive for quality.

Floppy discs or CD-ROMs or game cartridges used to cost real money. Broken software would be publicly embarrassing and long-lived. Some users might never update and just think your software sucked. So we had to try harder to get software right up front, to test in advance and write code that would make it function in difficult situations.

But with no marginal cost to shipping, businesses experiment with the question "how shoddy can our engineering be while still turning a profit?" and "what features can we add for our profit, even if it obstructs or hurts users?". They run those experiments daily now.

I believe this has successfully brought down quality norms in almost all categories of software: UIs respond in 100s or 1000s of ms as standard, not 10s. You lose your train of thought often with bad UIs, and they're all differently bad.

Secondly - a user in 2021 is less likely to be the person directly supporting the author of that software.

So the users' decision to use (or bin) the software for the long run doesn't need to be core of any software business' success. They can be compelled into using bad software by network effects (I know, pioneered by 90s Microsoft but the internet turbo-charged this). That's not just about evil business models; bad government or banking software has forced lots of people to bad software who never wanted a computer in the first place.

Thirdly - the other surprising evil from the network is the end of data ownership. After all the fuss 20 years ago about the politics of the MS Word file format, many users can't reliably separate data from the application that processes it any more. File format interoperability (whether reverse-engineered or open) used to be a smart way in for new competitors - do more things with your old data. Now that's impossible without continued cooperation of the companies producing the data. APIs to online data are treacherous and only kept around while they serve the business, not its users. So many "experience" apps aren't even clear what data they keep for you, and the law is still catching up.

Don't get me wrong, it's (maybe) a good thing that there are more people in 2022 doing things with software than there were in 2002. It's very often enabling. But the ideal of a computer being a tool or a "bicycle for the mind" is something you have to choose & fight for now.

(OS security & power management "innovation" is the other end of this rant, but for another day :) )

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#86
post #7

Not a main factor but a factor is 'always the latest tech' issue. Most banks and airlines I use rewrote their perfectly fine and fast sites and apps to reactjs and now they seriously suck. This is not the fault of react but more of this idea of tech people that everything has to be new which means we don't have 10+ year experience in it and the results just take more work to get right (despite what everyone says here…

>When done well they are supposed to help, but in reality I only see systems that can work when all microservices are up and responsive; if one is down, the entire thing is dead. Why didn't you make a monolith?

There are different kinds of microservices, some are infrastructure critical (for example, we have an auth service, if it goes down the whole thing goes down because users simply can't login anymore - and it doesn't matter if it's a microservice or a monolith, the end result is same), others are not so critical, for example we implement additional product modules (purchased separately) as microservices which have their own SPAs so if they go down basically only one page becomes unavailable and the system as a whole is unaffected.

Microservices aren't necessarily about 100% SLA, they help scale teams and deployment (however I'd say it only makes sense in larger organizations).

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#87
post #22

Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. Nobody is forced to continue using dark-pattern software, nobody was forced to use Apple and tie their credit-card to their "apple cloud account", yet normal users dont see a problem with it at all and just continue even paying for software which is hostile to them and their interests. Your question is like, "Why does DRM exist it is ac…

> Nobody is forced to continue using dark-pattern software, nobody was forced to use Apple and tie their credit-card to their "apple cloud account

Freee market delivers best results for the people, and if it doesn't, it's the people's fault!

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#89
post #34
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users are the last ones to blame. If anything it’s policy makers, investors and industrialists. If you want to participate in society, you need a smartphone, and guess what? The whole world is okay with only 2 companies doing this….

but uses voted with their wallets - there have been many smartphone manufacturers, but they fell one by one to user's choices to flock to the iphone (and i guess android).

It was not the users. Microsoft's Windows Mobile / Windows Phone and Nokia's Symbian completely failed to keep up with new innovations, which was the real problem.

Windows Mobile was a barely consumer-friendly version of Windows CE with a truckload of vendor-specific implementations (which made for a very inconsistent user experience) and the abomination called Windows Phone was completely incompatible on the app side with everything that existed on the Windows Mobile world and on the developer side with everything else.

Symbian was (effectively) a Nokia-only OS, which meant that developers were pretty scarce and again it was incompatible on the developer and user experiences.

Then came iOS as the first "disruptor" where the jailbreakers (!) of the first days showed just how sorely behind the competition was... the first iPhone was EDGE-only ffs and still it was radically different and better than everything on the market including the back-then flagship models with Windows Mobile from HTC. Android followed up and obliterated the competition, which was easy enough to do given Google's budget and Microsoft's complete inability to react - the iPhone was released in 2007 and the comical disaster of Windows Phone took until 2010!

The rest is history, everything not from Apple moved over to Android - the longest holdout was Blackberry with their moat of business users and the BlackBerry Messenger. And somewhere along the line, Samsung managed to destroy both HTC and Sony... what remains now on the market is Samsung, Xiaomi, BBK (Vivo/OPPO) and a bunch of low budget stuff fighting for the scraps. Very sad indeed.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#90
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but uses voted with their wallets - there have been many smartphone manufacturers, but they fell one by one to user's choices to flock to the iphone (and i guess android).

Users voted with their wallets at the time (back in the late 2000s), which led to Apple and Google becoming the dominant forces in the market and the providers of a huge chunk of the worlds smartphone. How would users vote now with their wallet when everything is tailored for users having either an iPhone or an Android phone? (Yes, I know alternatives exists, even alternatives not built on top of Android, but it's ex…

I agree.

I own a pine phone. It's all but un-useable in any meaningful sense of the word. I own a brick and motor and have just been mandated by the government to run their version of the vaccine passport app.

It's android OR ios.

What choices do I have here?

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