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Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

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Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Blockchain is the single largest threat to banking, and that doesn’t come without a price. That's an interesting statement. The first question that occurred to me was: Why does banking have to be threatened? In other words, is this a solution looking for a problem?

I feel like lots of people forgot about 2007/08 and the impact on so many people around the world. It was truly painful and destructive. And very clearly people responsible got off free, with bonuses and some even ended up with jobs in the treasury. A lot of people I know working in crypto saw their families hurt badly by that crises and will happily spend their lives trying to build something else (even if the odds…

Cryptocurrencies do nothing to solve the problem.

The fundamental problem is the belief that money is a thing that can be owned and stored when in reality it is just a relationship or a contractual agreement among humans.

The fact that you can own cash and get a guaranteed 0% interest rate even though nobody has signed that contract. E.g. nobody promised that you will get exactly $1 of value in the future. The 2% inflation target is just an expression that this idea is flawed from the start. Think about it this way. The inflation target reduces the effective interest rate that cash holders can demand without anyone agreeing to them receiving 0% interest.

What I am getting at is the fact that everyone, including the economists, assumes that money should be nominally durable. Money is not durable in real terms. It's a market distorting fallacy.

If we assume a barter economy with the option of having money denominated loans but no way to "own" money via cash then interest rates would be dictated by supply and demand and nobody would find it strange that interest rates could be negative when there is an oversupply of grains as the excess grains start spoiling and a negative interest rate could still be more profitable than the spoilage of grains. It's only once you introduce cash, that people perceive the right to pass the cost of spoilage onto everyone else as god given.

Now lets go back to how the modern money system actually works. You go to a bank and you basically promise payment (e.g. through work which ultimately boils down to your time) known as debt to the bank. The bank grants liquid credit which is basically a divisible claim to the debt and thereby a claim to your time. So money is an accounting system for abstract time/labor units.

Well, the unemployed still need to eat and they still need a place to live in. If we are going to be very cold hearted we can call these the storage costs of labor. If you don't pay them, your labor is gone (person is dead). Money lets you pretend that this is someone else's problem, e.g. the government is supposed to take care of the labor (welfare) that you haven't decided to utilize and keep maintaining it.

It's only logical that your money becomes worth less over time (if you assume it is durable). Keeping something in pristine condition requires an external energy input.

Okay, now onto the actual point I am trying to make. The assumption that human needs are endless is wrong, it was only true on a societal level because of endless population growth that is massively slowing doing. Human needs are no longer growing as fast as they used to. There are very few growth opportunities left that let you paper over the inability to express negative interest rates. This also means that the need for investment is going down significantly. Markets are starting to become saturated. Almost nobody but the government is borrowing anymore and this borrowing is meant to raise the interest rate above zero through fiscal stimulus.

If you are a company and you expand production in this environment, then your additional capacity will not earn a profit and even currently unused production capacity is becoming a drag to the economy as it requires staffing and periodic maintenance. Strictly speaking, there is more financial capital in the economy than there are investment opportunities. If saving and investment are balanced, then interest rates must be at 0%. If there is excess saving then the interest rate must go down (even below zero) to encourage people to pay off their debt and get rid of excess capital as the interest on loans slowly approaches 0%.

So there was this final last ditch attempt. Corporations and the rich became net lenders and they simply lent to (risky) households who were buying homes. Bankers noticed some regulatory loopholes and stopped caring about who they are lending to. After all, they are being flooded with money.

A -6% negative interest rate on cash would basically make QE irrelevant and allow price level targeting i.e. perfect price stability with zero inflation. Because liquid money is now freely circulating there is no risk of deflation which means governments can pay off their debts to reduce the supply of money which stops inflation. Unemployment would be very low as the cost of financing in a saturated market becomes 0% and no longer acts as a profitability gate that keeps people unemployed (e.g. growth dependence is gone). I am optimistic enough to believe that any further productivity growth would simply reduce people's working hours rather than keep them unemployed.

Also, if long term interest rates are near 0% then short term interest rates (e.g. on cash and deposits) must be negative to maintain a steep yield curve. Even if all you believe in is a 0% interest rate on loans you'll still need negative interest on cash to encourage people to lend their money out for a longer duration (certificate of deposit). When you think about it, a bank is using your short term deposits to stay liquid, while writing loans that can last many years. You can, without notice, pull out your deposits and the bank is then basically stuck being insolvent for the duration of those loans. That is what threatened banks in 2008 and this is why we did the bailsouts and are still doing QE. To pretend the damn banks are solvent when they aren't. They are being flooded with an endless amount of short term deposits that can disappear at any time.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Blockchain is the single largest threat to banking, and that doesn’t come without a price. That's an interesting statement. The first question that occurred to me was: Why does banking have to be threatened? In other words, is this a solution looking for a problem?

Yes there are lots of problems with banking. Cryptocurrency does have a reason to exist, though of course we went and fucked it all up. It can help ordinary people outmaneuver oppressive regimes. It can perform that same core functions that banks can (i.e. keeping track of and moving around money) in a public and distributed way. The banking industry (often metonymically known as "Wall Street") is literally the canon…

In theory, using Bitcoin as payment infrastructure is perfectly legitimate. However, the store of value myth is what everyone believes in and it is what is driving the popularity of Bitcoin. It's not very logical. No, you haven't invented the financial equivalent of the perpetuum mobile. Someone must work hard for all those gains or they disappear into thin air.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you deem this a stupid question? Not sure from your comment. Still, we have to be able to ask stupid questions or we don't learn. You seem to think the answer is obvious. Well, what is it then?

> Perhaps you deem this a stupid question? Not sure from your comment. Still, we have to be able to ask stupid questions or we don't learn. Ok I agree here. > Well, what is it then? Banks connected to the political/government controlled currencies tend toward corruption. Banks are part of corruptible scheme. Humans are too greedy with the power of money control. History backs it up over and over again.

History just shows that the insanity of not being able to represent a saturated market (negative interest) with your money system leads to war where people try to get rid of market saturation.

The broken window fallacy is an answer to getting positive interest in an economy that isn't growing. They are both equally illogical and for the same reason.

The idea of a god given right to 0% interest is the reason why currencies collapse and Bitcoin is sharing that flaw instead of getting rid of it.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money. All money that enters into circulation via fractional reserve lending is backed by demand for that same money, and enforced by the legal system. The repayment of the issuing loan. That’s where it’s value comes from. Unlike bitcoin fiat operates on a pull model - demand driven. It doesn’t start by creating supply and having people shill it.

You might need to review your monetary history. Fiat required trade to be based on gold first, a peg which was then broken. Central banks can create infinite units arbitrarily. "Enforced by the legal system" perhaps means controlled by the FOMC, a dozen central bankers who make decisions behind close doors, nominated and chosen by congress I believe.

>Central banks can create infinite units arbitrarily.

They literally cannot. Central bank reserves aren't money in the sense of legal tender. Only borrowers can "create" money and they create an equal debt in the process which means all money in existence will have to disappear one day. Money has zero value throughout the entire process, the provider of value is the borrower, human being made out of flesh and blood.

It's like matter and anti matter that balance each other out.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#355
post #61

PoW mining (at least), must be made illegal. I have no doubts that it will end by becoming illegal, the question is how and when. It boggles the mind that there is now essentially a worldwide tax on semiconductors, which is used to do... nothing of any value whatsoever. And this thing just keeps growing. The effects will be felt in more and more economic sectors. Something will have to give. So, the only question is:…

What else would you make illegal? High fidelity 3d graphics in gaming? It is clearly wasteful and games are hardly any better because of high polygon count, right?

How would you enforce energy efficiency mandates on blockchains? We do it with fridges, why not with Bitcoin? E.g. a single transaction may not consume more than 100kWh of energy.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#356

The only way to beat Bitcoin or other proof-of-work cryptocurrencies is to remove the need for them. Bitcoin and other cryptos have a use-case; it may not be apparent to someone living in a developed country with access to a good banking system or it may be one you don't like and involves criminal activity, but there absolutely is a use-case. The only way to stop this is if the traditional banking system catches up a…

How do you legalize money laundering?

Make people happy enough to not money launder in the first place?

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#357
post #28

We are rapidly depleting our remaining carbon budget. Can a bitcoiner please explain to me why this is a necessary technological development right now?

Sure, if you are serious, the Bitcoin Standard book is a worthy read. But what’s important is that Bitcoin solves the inflation problem, and proof of work is the only system that we have for getting rid of the Cantillon effect of modern banking: the closer people get to the top of the central banks, the richer they get and destroy life for those who don’t have access to the inner layers of central banking. With Bitco…

Bitcoin doesn't solve the inflation problem. Nothing can solve the inflation problem in real terms because the real world is decaying.

Also if the Cantillon effect exists, then it applies to every single dollar spent inside the economy, not just to "printed money". E.g. if there is a mechanism that sucks out "printed money" to the top, then there is also a mechanism that sucks out not "printed money" to the top. If you understand that, then the "printed money" exists to replenish money at the bottom of the economy where it inevitably gets sucked back to the top.

Hint: Positive interest rates redistribute wealth upwards.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#358
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a son who is just about 10 years old, and he’s getting to the age where he’s beginning to realize how irrational our world is. We recently had a conversation discussing the fact that we could eradicate hunger and the need for clean water globally, but for a whole host of reasons we have not yet done it. He continues to probe “why“ and all I can say is, essentially, because people are greedy and unmotivated gen…

> We recently had a conversation discussing the fact that we could eradicate hunger and the need for clean water globally, but for a whole host of reasons we have not yet done it. It depends at what level you mean ‘could.’ Yes, agro-technically we can produce enough food to feed everyone. The issue with world hunger is mostly due to non democratic governments preferring power over feeding their people. At that level,…

You literally just described their own comment back to them.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might need to review your monetary history. Fiat required trade to be based on gold first, a peg which was then broken. Central banks can create infinite units arbitrarily. "Enforced by the legal system" perhaps means controlled by the FOMC, a dozen central bankers who make decisions behind close doors, nominated and chosen by congress I believe.

>Central banks can create infinite units arbitrarily. They literally cannot. Central bank reserves aren't money in the sense of legal tender. Only borrowers can "create" money and they create an equal debt in the process which means all money in existence will have to disappear one day. Money has zero value throughout the entire process, the provider of value is the borrower, human being made out of flesh and blood.…

The US can literally choose to never default on its debt, regardless of how much money it actually has.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#360
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation isn't a bad thing necessarily.

> Inflation isn't a bad thing necessarily. if you are already rich...

If you are already rich then you are forced to invest your money for the benefit of workers. The fact that the rich own assets is not a mistake. They're supposed to own them. Savings must be invested, directly or indirectly or else people end up unemployed.
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