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Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

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Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#341
post #124
post #7

With a climate crisis the last thing we needed was to make the most effective energy consumption system ever constructed. The whole thing literally works on competing on consuming more energy. No other system works so efficiently towards such goal. What's scary is that the whole thing was designed to be unstoppable. My utopian hope for the future is that we start sending rigs in orbit close to the sun. Since we only…

>My utopian hope for the future is that we start sending rigs in orbit close to the sun ... Thats your utopia? How about we figure out a way to store/transfer wealth which doesnt need to perform arbitrary calculations and cause massive power consumption

Money doesn't store wealth. You make an agreement that a person in the future gives you wealth called a loan.

Bitcoin investors expect the people of the future to work for them even though they made no such agreement.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money. All money that enters into circulation via fractional reserve lending is backed by demand for that same money, and enforced by the legal system. The repayment of the issuing loan. That’s where it’s value comes from. Unlike bitcoin fiat operates on a pull model - demand driven. It doesn’t start by creating supply and having people shill it.

You might need to review your monetary history. Fiat required trade to be based on gold first, a peg which was then broken. Central banks can create infinite units arbitrarily. "Enforced by the legal system" perhaps means controlled by the FOMC, a dozen central bankers who make decisions behind close doors, nominated and chosen by congress I believe.

> Fiat required trade to be based on gold first, a peg which was then broken.

Fiat is by definition not based on gold.

  The term is [...] usually reserved for legal-tender paper money or coins that have face values far exceeding their commodity values and are not redeemable in gold or silver. [1]
What you are describing is the switch from commodity money (gold standard) to fiat, an objectively better system for many reasons. This happened in 1933 under FDR in the United States, not under Nixon as many of the tinfoil hat crew are wont to say.

What you're describing is at most - at most - a default on the government's obligations 89 years ago. Not a Ponzi scheme lol. Everything folks are suspicious of is a Ponzi scheme these days.

> Central banks can create infinite units arbitrarily.

Central banks do not create money. They at most indirectly affect the money supply via adjustment of interest rates and reserve requirements. [2] However their mandate under which they operate is to maintain low, predictable medium-term inflation targets and maximize employment.

This is like saying "well, actually, the Bitcoin core team can adjust the 21M coin limit up to an arbitrary value!" They could, technically, but there's a ton of reasons they won't.

> "Enforced by the legal system" perhaps means controlled by the FOMC.

No it does not. When you borrow money from a retail bank, say to purchase a house, they create new money that enters the system, paired with a negative balance on their books. The new money is backed by the demand of the issuer to re-pay that loan. As the loan is re-paid the new money is destroyed and leaves the system. The legal system enforces payments in these contracts.

> ...a dozen central bankers who make decisions behind close doors, nominated and chosen by congress I believe.

They are nominated by the president and appointed by congress. The Federal Reserve is an independent organization explicitly to separate capricious fiscal policy from the kind of stable monetary policy necessary for businesses to plan into the future.

They were created by an act of congress and can be repealed by act of congress. They act on behalf of the American people and are accountable to the American people. All decisions are published and documented along with full audits. Like the post office.

There's nothing more sinister or shady about the Fed than there is about the USPS.

Sure does spook people though.

[1] https://www.britannica.com/topic/fiat-money

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation#Central_banks

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#343
post #32
post #7

With a climate crisis the last thing we needed was to make the most effective energy consumption system ever constructed. The whole thing literally works on competing on consuming more energy. No other system works so efficiently towards such goal. What's scary is that the whole thing was designed to be unstoppable. My utopian hope for the future is that we start sending rigs in orbit close to the sun. Since we only…

> The whole thing literally works on competing on consuming more energy. I know this is pedantic, but the competition is about computational power. Energy is a significant input. Let’s not ignore the benefit that the more computational power that is spent in the competition the more secure the blockchain is from 51% attacks. Maybe 134 TWh is too high of a price for such a limited use technology such as bitcoin. Maybe…

I don't really see how cryptocurrency is supposed to be a threat to banking. You can still implement banking on top of cryptocurrency. You know, through loans.

Of course there is the caveat nobody is insane enough to agree to Bitcoin denominated debt. Dogecoin might work though.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#344

Just copying another comment abotu the energy consumption of online adverising "The online advertising ecosystem resides in the core of the Internet, and it is the sole source of funding for many online services. Therefore, it is an essential factor in the analysis of the Internet's energy footprint. As a result, in 2016, online advertising consumed 20–282 TWh of energy. In the same year, the total infrastructure con…

ok, but online advertising is used by / pays bills for maybe half of the whole industry, whereas crypto is used by what, 0.1% of internet users?

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then, We should make money laundering, drug trafficking, ransomware, blackmail etc legal?. Banking system is regulated precisely to make illegal activities more difficult. Sooner or later, crypto exchanges will get regulated in the same way as banks. It just takes time for regulators to catch up.

> Banking system is regulated precisely to make illegal activities more difficult. But at what cost? I'd argue that the costs outweigh the benefits. It hinders competition and innovation, makes it hard or impossible for some people and businesses to access the banking system, increases fees on consumers due to the immense cost of compliance (>$180bn a year worldwide), puts innocent people behind bars ("guilty until p…

> But at what cost? I'd argue that the costs outweigh the benefits. It hinders competition and innovation, makes it hard or impossible for some people and businesses to access the banking system, increases fees on consumers due to the immense cost of compliance (>$180bn a year worldwide), puts innocent people behind bars ("guilty until proven innocent" is the typical standard with AML), is a privacy nightmare, puts police investigative work into the hands of private sector employees, makes operating globally almost impossible, et

Benefit greatly outweigh cost. You can put your credit card details in random website, and it is relatively secure. When someone steals your card, you can get bank refund or do chargeback. For most consumer, making online payment is free of charges. You have sophisticated security, limits, monitoring, fraud detection and when bank is hacked or defaulted your money have government guarantee. My bank would ask me for additional authentication when making bigger payments, and even once blocked a transfer I made because it was a scam.

Meanwhile, in crypto world:

When your exchange is hacked (Mt. Gox) you lose everything. When someone steals your wallet you lose everything. You need to figure perfect personal security or you will get hacked and lose everything. Payments are slow, expensive and nobody protects you against scammers.

> Meanwhile, has it really deterred any crime? How about we just go back to catching criminals the good old fashion, with police investigations, for actual crimes, just like we did pre 1989. Hell, use financial data to inform investigations if needed.

Financial data is provided by banks as part of this regulation. Most of the cash transactions and trades in stock market are reported to multiple organizations that use that data to prevent/fight financial crime. This regulation make hard to create bank account for illegal activities because banks are liable for this[1].

[1]https://www.wsj.com/articles/hsbc-fined-85-million-for-lax-a...

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#346
post #61

PoW mining (at least), must be made illegal. I have no doubts that it will end by becoming illegal, the question is how and when. It boggles the mind that there is now essentially a worldwide tax on semiconductors, which is used to do... nothing of any value whatsoever. And this thing just keeps growing. The effects will be felt in more and more economic sectors. Something will have to give. So, the only question is:…

Yes. Nationstates very much want to make the proven distributed mechanisms of consensus that allows people to exchange value without their oversite illegal. No significant cryptocurrency has gone proof of stake, and certainly none just starting out. Etherium will never actually switch. Making proof of work illegal would make effective cryptocurrency illegal. The violent standing armies (and their logistics networks)…

OOC why don't you expect ETH to switch? It seems like they're moving full steam ahead.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#347
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DePaul University suggests that this number should be closer to 35 tons of CO2 for jewelry, which accounts for roughly 50% of global gold demand. It is assumed that refinement uses a similar amount of power to recycling; therefore, a total of 79.9 MWh is used for the mining and refinement of each gram of gold used in jewelry. Each kilogram of recycled gold produces 37 tons of CO2 and uses 31.3 MWh of energy. This b…

> transactions with gold basically 0 energy. Transactions with gold often involve transporting it from one location to another location.

That's generally not true with transaction between countries:

> when countries exchange money for goods in other countries, the gold bars aren't even moved. they bar just gets recorded as belonging to another country

And I don't think individuals or companies make transactions with gold that often.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#349

I like cryptocurrencies but this high electricity usage has kept me away from Bitcoin in the early days. I've since come to forgive Bitcoin for this ridiculous energy usage because of how important a problem Bitcoin is solving (the world desperately needs provably scarce, deflationary hard money). It's just unfortunate that people chose to focus on Bitcoin and not some other PoS crypto which uses less electricity...…

Why does the world need deflationary money?

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for responding. why does bitcoin remove this cantillion effect? Remember that Roger Ver, who was in the room when Segwit 2 was discussed, decided to go forth with the bitcoin cash fork, which pleased the miners. It appears to me that miners are able to turn profit, that's why we see new mining facilities popping up around the world. also, does the market actually select the most efficient technology? Anecdotal…

The segwit+bitcoin cash fork was a technically very complex situation. Miners loved the Bitcoin cash fork as bigger block sizes centralize the system (makes block transfer time longer, which makes it easier to do selfish mining and harder for small miners to take part of the system, especially through TOR relay). Read the blocksize wars book (I listened to the audiobook and loved it) for an in depth explanation, it’s…

And how do you calculate that the C02 problem could be solved with $10T - $50T? And over what time period could an investment of 10T solve the problem? And how would it be done?
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