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We need to reclaim our attention

theguardian.com

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Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#381

Post by snerbles »

trwhite wrote: post #109
slibhb wrote: post #42

> Some scientists say these worries about attention are a moral panic, comparable to the anxieties in the past about comic books or rap music, and that the evidence is shaky. I agree with them. It's hard to pay attention to something for long unless it's entertaining. Reading a book, reading a paper, etc -- these activities take discipline that most people don't develop or don't often apply. This isn't new. The mista…

Video games are immensely addictive. The burst of adrenaline some of the recent online FPS' give me doesn't compare to any other feeling or experience I've had as a human being. They didn't just happen to be this way. They have been designed to be so thrilling that normal life cannot compete.

Once, after a particularly intense fight in EVE Online I found my hands shaking.

The only other occasion I surpassed that level of adrenaline was in Iraq in 2007.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#382

Post by simplestats »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #180
zentropia wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we have an epidemic of chess?

You're getting downvoted for a perfectly reasonable question. No we don't - because chess is a super-minority niche interest. The danger of social media is that it's social mass media - designed to be as addictive as possible to as many people as possible in as many different ways as possible using as many different techniques as possible. And that's before getting into the dangers of targeted micro-niche ads used fo…

But isn't chess one subset within that network, which would indeed be covered by any law regulating addictiveness of social media? Or will you allow people to be caught up on their own "otaku" like obsession with whatever niche area, but it is simply verboten to notify them of the existence of a different niche?

I also don't see how people can separate "optimizing addictiveness" (e.g. making your junk food too yummy or whatever) versus simply trying to make a better product that gives your customers what they want. The main criteria for who gets described in this way seems to be the corporate structure of the seller.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#383

Post by dTal »

thegrimmest wrote: post #98
sascha_sl wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This presupposed the "voluntary" part of capitalism, which I find objectionable, but I didn't want to go on a tangent for too long. FWIW, I wouldn't want to prescribe a particular habit of eating healthy or not binging media, but I also don't consider the current status quo neutral. It is true that it is simply a product of profit incentives, but that doesn't mean the outcomes are good, desirable or natural.

My point is that "good, desirable or natural" are not real . They are not concrete things that we can derive from observations about the world. They are akin to religions beliefs. Reasonable people can hold opposing views, and there is no oracle to divine the one truth. Given this situation, the only reasonable way forward seems to be tolerance of the full diversity of belief, and refrain from imposing one's own beli…

Ethical nihilism is no basis for public policy. Your argument successfully justifies legal murder, for instance. Who are we to say that it's wrong?

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#384

Post by sneezles »

anigbrowl wrote: post #373
zippystrider wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you install and adblocking app on the iPad, your son can see fewer ads (e.g. AdGuard, AdBlock) on these games. Alternatively, you could set up Pi-hole on a Raspberry Pi to block ads across the network.

This isn't something you need to explain to people here. It's like responding to someone's comment about unpleasant weather by suggesting that they could wear different clothes.

The reason that people here know about this stuff is that this place is full of people sharing helpful tidbits like this.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#385

Post by sascha_sl »

snerbles wrote: post #381
trwhite wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Video games are immensely addictive. The burst of adrenaline some of the recent online FPS' give me doesn't compare to any other feeling or experience I've had as a human being. They didn't just happen to be this way. They have been designed to be so thrilling that normal life cannot compete.

Once, after a particularly intense fight in EVE Online I found my hands shaking. The only other occasion I surpassed that level of adrenaline was in Iraq in 2007.

EVE is a very special game. I’d attribute the rush more to all interactions being unscripted, fights to occur relatively rare and having pretty tangible value on the line.

It definitely doesn’t compete very well for attention.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#386

Post by dTal »

thegrimmest wrote: post #255
claudiulodro wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- We already regulate interaction between people (e.g. you can't throw a rock at someone when you disagree with them). Even if it's paternalistic, surely you're not proposing we should do away with those regulations. - The internet is a common shared environment, so its maintenance should be regulated like other environments to manage externalities. These points seem consistent with your philosophy and also permit re…

If it wasn't clear, I'm suggesting regulating nonviolent interaction is paternalistic, as is weaseling around it by expanding the definition of violence. I agree we shouldn't let people physically destroy internet infrastructure. I don't think this is controversial. I don't think we should regulate how people peacefully interact.

Why is "violence" your boundary? Most people agree that lots of things can be "bad" besides violence. There's a pretty broad consensus on that. You're going to need some pretty strong arguments to justify legalizing theft and fraud.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#387

Post by hackingthelema »

Barrin92 wrote: post #328
hackingthelema wrote: post #67

I often wonder what the world would be like if the Buddhist sciences of the mind (e.g. mindfulness) were taught at all levels of society, as a priority, and TFA mentions it near the end, to say it's not enough: > Meditation is a useful tool – but we actually need to stop the people who are pouring itching powder on us. We need to band together to take on the forces stealing our attention and take it back. I'd argue t…

I'm sure every blue collar worker and mother of two has the time and temperament to sign up to the Bene Gesserit school It's amazing how far the ideology of the unfettered market economy has seeped into our lives to the point that the idea that we should retrain the entire human species to fend off media manipulation seems somehow more practical than simply putting an end to the unethical business practices of an ind…

'Bene Gesserit school'? How hyperbolic. I am talking like 10-15 minutes of meditation a day. I used to do it in the break room for 10-15 minutes twice a day while working at Walmart or elsewhere. It is no issue at all. I'm not sure what you have in mind that would be more complicated than that!

> retrain the entire human species to fend off media manipulation

Mindfulness assisting in opening one's eyes to media manipulation is just one of the benefits, not the only one. There are many benefits to teaching it to all.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#389

Post by wott »

tome wrote: post #353
wott wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Developped countries share the same technologies, but this obesity and diabetes problem you're talking about seems largely rooted in North America. In France ("the land of delicate and healthy food", as it is sold to you), obesity rate was multiplied by 3 since the 80s. Overweight rate raised by 50%. Diabetes has also been on the raise: double or tripled since the 90s. You know, in general all the crap that develop…

> France ("the land of delicate and healthy food", as it is sold to you) Is it? I would associate that description more with Italy. With France I associate butter, cream, cheese, fatty cuts of meat ...

To many people, Italy would first evoke pizza and (the huge amount of Nonna's) pasta :-)

"Gourmet", "Chef", "Cuisine" and dozens of other terms: even in the English culinary vocabulary, the French words have a predominant role. It ruled the world of 'proper' cooking at some point. But I was more thinking about how, from the USA, the French are presented as having a balanced diet, eating a bit of everything but not eating too much of anything, cooking by themselves and not resorting to mostly ready, industrial, over-processed meals, how they would be a sort model in those matters related to food.

What was very fashionable at some point in the discourse on healthy food (10-15 years ago, maybe), was the Greek/Cretan diet; which was often extended to the whole Mediterranean, including Italy indeed, and south of France. Traditionally the butter & cream you mentioned are associated with northern France: the South was supposed to be a land of oil (olive oil in the most Mediterranean part, other oils in other parts) and the North a land of butter.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#390

Post by com2kid »

trwhite wrote: post #109
slibhb wrote: post #42

> Some scientists say these worries about attention are a moral panic, comparable to the anxieties in the past about comic books or rap music, and that the evidence is shaky. I agree with them. It's hard to pay attention to something for long unless it's entertaining. Reading a book, reading a paper, etc -- these activities take discipline that most people don't develop or don't often apply. This isn't new. The mista…

Video games are immensely addictive. The burst of adrenaline some of the recent online FPS' give me doesn't compare to any other feeling or experience I've had as a human being. They didn't just happen to be this way. They have been designed to be so thrilling that normal life cannot compete.

> The burst of adrenaline some of the recent online FPS' give me doesn't compare to any other feeling or experience I've had as a human being.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu matches up. Various forms of racing will also hit the same pathways in the brain.

Hard to achieve for sure.

One thing that happened to be though, is that once I got really skilled at physical things, going back and playing games was a lot more boring. It is like the artificial reward loop didn't work anymore once I'd tasted the real thing.

(Either that or I got old enough that my reaction times dropped sufficiently so I wasn't one of the top bad asses playing FPSs so I wasn't having as much fun! ;) )

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