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Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

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Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#291

Post by [deleted] »

la_fayette wrote: post #255
arcticbull wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst part is that according to Cambridge some 40% of that is coal power [1]. Frequently the dirtiest coal power in the world, between Xinjiang (no longer, probably...) and Kazakhstan. Coal power causes excess mortality of anywhere between 25 and 278 deaths per TWh generated depending on how you're counting it and (most importantly) where it's generated. [2,3,4] Bitcoin's addiction to dirty coal killed between 15…

There are no new dirty power plants like coal or nuclear built specifically for bitcoin mining. There are definitely new renewable energy sources built for bitcoin mining. So dirty energy would be used anyway! The rate of new renewable energy sources created because of bitcoin is higher overall than without bitcoin.

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#292

Post by landemva »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #110
clippablematt wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like lots of people forgot about 2007/08 and the impact on so many people around the world. It was truly painful and destructive. And very clearly people responsible got off free, with bonuses and some even ended up with jobs in the treasury. A lot of people I know working in crypto saw their families hurt badly by that crises and will happily spend their lives trying to build something else (even if the odds…

Serious question: how would cryptocurrencies and defi have helped avoid/mitigate the subprime lending crisis specifically?

If you do want to learn how this works with defi, look at DAI and those loans which are based on overcollateralization and incentives for people to hunt for and liquidate others who don't have enough collateralization.

2008 was caused by starting with undercollateralized loans enabled in part by fake rating agency ratings, and failure of regulators to regulate. That system failed and the backstop FDIC can only write checks up to around a 3% failure.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#293

Post by jallen_dot_dev »

walkhour wrote: post #281
jallen_dot_dev wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes for Ethereum but Bitcoin will never adopt it, for ideological reasons. The community is extremely resistant to big changes like this. It took what should have been a small and uncontroversial change (where to store the witness data for transactions in a block) years of vicious debate and led to competing forks.

Prediction markets estimate at around 15% the chance that Bitcoin will adopt PoS. If you think this will never happen you can make money at https://www.metaculus.com/questions/7109/bitcoin-consensus-m... .

Hmm, how does this work exactly? Is my money locked up for 13 years while we wait for the result? That seems like a poor return on investment. Do I have to trust this website will still be around 13 years from now?

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#294

Post by mwattsun »

teraflop wrote: post #49
mwattsun wrote: post #25

The counter argument is that Bitcoin is a battery [1] so that if you live in a place like Iceland with plentiful energy, so much that even exporting it as aluminum leaves extra, then you can turn it into Bitcoin and export it that way. But most Bitcoin mining is not that. I feel like Joni Mitchell in the Big Yellow Taxi: "They paved paradise and put up a parking lot" [2] Why are we allowing this to happen? (Well, at…

The "Bitcoin as battery" analogy fails for at least two significant reasons, IMO: 1. If you spend energy to produce, say, charged batteries or aluminum or biodiesel, that allows you to do something useful with those resources without needing corresponding energy consumption later. When you spend energy to mine Bitcoin, there's no way to use it to decrease your future energy needs; you can only use it to pay others an…

When Nick Grossman's article was posted 9 months ago [1], there were people who argued in favor of Bitcoin as a battery, but now it seems Bitcoin is so hated that my original comment is headed into negative territory and I'm arguing alone, so I'd use this as a sell indicator if I had any Bitcoin.

I don't like the energy wastage of Bitcoin anymore than anyone else. This needs to be fixed and firing up old fossil fuel plants, for example in upstate New York, needs to be outlawed.

I just thought the Bitcoin as battery was interesting and I stand by it. I can imagine cases where abundant renewable energy sources are not being utilized because they are geographically remote and Bitcoin mining is a way to get some value out of it.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26609247 [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/some-locals-say-...

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#295

Post by landemva »

seibelj wrote: post #174
hetspookjee wrote: post #122

Just copying another comment abotu the energy consumption of online adverising "The online advertising ecosystem resides in the core of the Internet, and it is the sole source of funding for many online services. Therefore, it is an essential factor in the analysis of the Internet's energy footprint. As a result, in 2016, online advertising consumed 20–282 TWh of energy. In the same year, the total infrastructure con…

Yes but if we start playing the “which energy use is more valid” game then quickly we realize energy is in the eye of the beholder, and the solution is a pollution tax. Bitcoin shouldn’t be outlawed anymore than video games (a totally useless tech from a society viewpoint) but HNers love their video games and Google paychecks.

Would you consider having USA impose environmental parity tariffs as a way to tax over-polluting countries (which are used by Apple because of the lack of environmental and human protections which make things cheaper to manufacturer over there)?

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#296

Post by xiphias2 »

it_citizen wrote: post #285
xiphias2 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin has a built in inflation schedule. If you believe that over long term price inflation of scarce assets (like New York real estate) will follow the inflation of the emission of the currency (which I believe), Bitcoin will make sure it will stay under 1% in the future. Right now Bitcoin is in the adoption phase, that’s why people are seeing the crazy price moves, but I expect it to normalize in the future (mayb…

I am not talking about scarce assets but of the entire economy of a country. Concretely, how would bitcoin would manage to keep inflation in a healthy range (1.5%-3%) given that we can no longer decide to emit or remove money from the system as the situation evolves? If the world goes into recession vs know an economical boom, you don't want to emit the same amount of money into the system. Also, if two economic zone…

Can you tell me a period of time from history when governments were removing money from the system (spending less than they were raising taxes and paying back their bonds without creating more debt)? It never happens. What governments are doing is unsustainable, people are not happy with the trillions of dollars they are printing and buying up scarce assets (which are the most imporant things for people…good luck living in an email inbox for free).

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#297

Post by wackro »

oneoff786 wrote: post #136
arcticbull wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst part is that according to Cambridge some 40% of that is coal power [1]. Frequently the dirtiest coal power in the world, between Xinjiang (no longer, probably...) and Kazakhstan. Coal power causes excess mortality of anywhere between 25 and 278 deaths per TWh generated depending on how you're counting it and (most importantly) where it's generated. [2,3,4] Bitcoin's addiction to dirty coal killed between 15…

Is free energy a noteworthy feature of the WoW world?

There are no externalities in the Wow economy

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#298

Post by landemva »

thathndude wrote: post #103
Nextgrid wrote: post #56

The only way to beat Bitcoin or other proof-of-work cryptocurrencies is to remove the need for them. Bitcoin and other cryptos have a use-case; it may not be apparent to someone living in a developed country with access to a good banking system or it may be one you don't like and involves criminal activity, but there absolutely is a use-case. The only way to stop this is if the traditional banking system catches up a…

We know that technological history is full of situations where the inferior technology prevailed for some reason or another. The classic example is Betamax versus VHS. All that is to say, as much as I’d like to believe it is true, there is some naivety to suggest that a superior solution will simply up end cryptocurrency, when there is a lot of money to be made by a lot of very wealthy people in cryptocurrency.

Or consider: 'there is a lot of money to be made by a lot of very wealthy people' in continuation of the petro-dollar system. Many high-paying white collar defense contractor jobs are wrapped in patriotism and sell munitions to middle east dictators.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#299

Post by eric_cc »

robomartin wrote: post #233
eric_cc wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does banking have to be threatened? Is this a real question?

Perhaps you deem this a stupid question? Not sure from your comment. Still, we have to be able to ask stupid questions or we don't learn. You seem to think the answer is obvious. Well, what is it then?

> Perhaps you deem this a stupid question? Not sure from your comment. Still, we have to be able to ask stupid questions or we don't learn.

Ok I agree here.

> Well, what is it then?

Banks connected to the political/government controlled currencies tend toward corruption. Banks are part of corruptible scheme. Humans are too greedy with the power of money control.

History backs it up over and over again.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#300

Post by landemva »

it_citizen wrote: post #285
xiphias2 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin has a built in inflation schedule. If you believe that over long term price inflation of scarce assets (like New York real estate) will follow the inflation of the emission of the currency (which I believe), Bitcoin will make sure it will stay under 1% in the future. Right now Bitcoin is in the adoption phase, that’s why people are seeing the crazy price moves, but I expect it to normalize in the future (mayb…

I am not talking about scarce assets but of the entire economy of a country. Concretely, how would bitcoin would manage to keep inflation in a healthy range (1.5%-3%) given that we can no longer decide to emit or remove money from the system as the situation evolves? If the world goes into recession vs know an economical boom, you don't want to emit the same amount of money into the system. Also, if two economic zone…

If by inflation you mean the rise in general prices, or the destruction of the purchasing power of the monetary unit, then the track record is that btc will continue to be deflationary in that your purchasing power will be increased. If you don't like increased purchasing power, there are alternatives such as holding most any government issued monetary unit.
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