Live data from Hacker News

Why Some Languages Sound Faster Than Others

time.com

21–30 of 58 posts

Re: Why Some Languages Sound Faster Than Others

#21
post #11

Hm, .91 'information per syllable' for English at an average rate of 6.19 syllables per second are 5.6 'information' per second vs. .49 * 7.84 = 3.8 for Spanish. How is 5.6 "more or less identical amount of information" as 3.8? That's a 47% difference!

It sounds like the information density of a given syllable is decided subjectively. The subjective measurements are probably not proportional. It makes sense - Imagine if you're tasked with giving a numerical value for how much information is in a sentence. Working through the sentence syllable by syllable and picking an arbitrary 'information score' of each syllable, then adding the information scores together won't get you a particularly good result.

The conclusion of the article (that all languages transmit data at the same rate) is supported by the research, but not proved by it. I suspect that if you read the paper, the researchers wouldn't make it sound so conclusive.

Re: Why Some Languages Sound Faster Than Others

#22

I've been living in Vietnam and trying to learn the language for a while now and this confirms my impression that Vietnamese is very information dense. Most words are monosyllabic and the same syllable pronounced with different tones has completely different meanings. Also, a lot of things we state explicitly in English are left implicit in Vietnamese. You'd expect that a language with greater information density wou…

British English uses a hell of a lot of implicit meanings, though this is declining with the rise of both modern soundbite politics forcing public discourse to be more literal, which also combines with public discourse being less implicit to benefit a more multicultural society. Nuance takes a long time to learn, and it's easy to take things the wrong way if you don't have heavy experience with it.

I don't speak Vietnamese, so can't comment directly with that, but I can relate to my experiences in watching public Australian English simplify massively over the past 20 years or so. The wider public take a lot of cues from the media. Soundbite journalism be damned.

Re: Why Some Languages Sound Faster Than Others

#23
Actually English has very few syllables compared to Filipino or Spanish. Nearly a third of the words are one syllable and most of the multiple syllable words have either Latin, French, or Greek origin. I think there was an attempt by early humans to make words have as less syllables as possible to simplify communication. Then as our thoughts became more complex they either changed the tone of the syllable (as in Chinese) or added prefixes and suffixes to alter the meaning of the root word. Those language families that decided to add prefixes and suffixes became known as "inflectional" languages. Those that remained mono-syllabic have a variety of tones per syllable.

Re: Why Some Languages Sound Faster Than Others

#24
From what I can tell, Chinese will often drop tones, just as English will drop vowels (substituting most vowels for a schwa - a kind of "e" or "uh" sound) if the meaning is not too ambiguous.

People who learn Chinese often fret about getting the tones right. The tones just aren't that important - Chinese speakers can generally guess the meaning, though they will think you sound like a 4-year-old if you don't pronounce tones correctly. IMO, getting the vowels and consonants right is harder (and more important).

Seriously, here's the pairs you will confuse:

d / t - d is unaspirated

j / zh - j is a "cjsch" sound (a bit like "Asia") while zh is a "j" sound

q / ch - q is a "bright" (slightly whistled?) ch; ch is a "dark" ch)

x / sh - x is a "bright" sh and sh is a "dark" sh

c / s - c is a "ts", s is just s

b / p - b can sound a little closer to p than in English and p is more aspirated

g / k - g sounds a little close to k, while k is more aspirated

Then there's the vowels, which are really hard. Learning four tones is comparatively easy.

If you don't get the consonants almost 100% correct, people will simply not be able to tell what you are saying. If you don't use tones, they can usually understand, as long as you use simple words (which face it, you will).

Re: Why Some Languages Sound Faster Than Others

#25
post #22

I've been living in Vietnam and trying to learn the language for a while now and this confirms my impression that Vietnamese is very information dense. Most words are monosyllabic and the same syllable pronounced with different tones has completely different meanings. Also, a lot of things we state explicitly in English are left implicit in Vietnamese. You'd expect that a language with greater information density wou…

British English uses a hell of a lot of implicit meanings, though this is declining with the rise of both modern soundbite politics forcing public discourse to be more literal, which also combines with public discourse being less implicit to benefit a more multicultural society. Nuance takes a long time to learn, and it's easy to take things the wrong way if you don't have heavy experience with it. I don't speak Viet…

Can you give some examples of implied meanings in British/Australian English? As an native American English speaker, I've never had this opinion of British/Australian English. I mean, I do feel that Americans are more straightforward, whereas the British are rather reticent. But I don't think this is extensively reflected via linguistic differences.

Re: Why Some Languages Sound Faster Than Others

#26

I've been living in Vietnam and trying to learn the language for a while now and this confirms my impression that Vietnamese is very information dense. Most words are monosyllabic and the same syllable pronounced with different tones has completely different meanings. Also, a lot of things we state explicitly in English are left implicit in Vietnamese. You'd expect that a language with greater information density wou…

If Vietnamese is much like Chinese, I wouldn't be surprised. Chinese speakers don't specify much. They tend to hollar low-context imperatives at each other, and hope that everyone already knows their job. Linguists call this a "high context" language, because if you don't have a good idea of the existing context you won't figure much out.

I suspect it's related to the extremely strict and ridged hierarchies in China, and the extremely flexible and implicit social networks. Your boss doesn't ask you to do a favor. They order you. In contrast, you don't ask your neighbour if you can borrow a cup or sugar, you just take it, and pay back the favor some other time. If they don't let you (and don't have a good reason), you just never talk to them again (or if that's too severe, silently downgrade your relationship with them).

Funnily, "let" and "make" are the same word in Chinese. i.e. "My mother made me do my homework, then she made me watch TV".

Re: Why Some Languages Sound Faster Than Others

#28
post #5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that is in line with their findings. Since Japanese has more syllables than any other tested language (where nearly every other letter is a vowel) it would make sense that a faster rate of unknown syllables flying by would result in the perception of faster speech. It's interesting that while the Japanese have such a focus on efficiency, their spoken and written language is potentially more contrary to this…

> Since Japanese has more syllables than any other tested language The article claims less information is encoded in each syllable, not more (as would be expected if more syllables were available). The Japanese syllabaric alphabets (hiragana and katakana) are larger than the roman alphabet, but the smaller alphabet doesn't mean that Japanese has more syllables than English. English syllables are written using multipl…

A nice segue into a key point about Linguistics, and some Japanese facts.

The study of Linguistics, explicitly, does not deal with orthography, or the written system of languages. There are of course exceptions with good reasons, but orthography systems are rarely, if ever, good representations of the systems of auditory communication that are formally considered languages. An orthography system can be heavily influenced by geopolitics (Chinese), have severe ambiguities (Arabic, the various Latin alphabet systems), or have been created retroactively (many languages of indigenous peoples). While it is convenient to map a spoken language to its related orthography when discussing topics such as syllables, inflection, and morphology, it is rarely appropriate when studying linguistics formally.

As for Japanese, while it is true that its alphabet system has a relatively straightforward mapping to its phonology, the mapping itself is, unfortunately, not unambiguous. Japanese has a tonal system[1] that is not explicit in its orthography. There are examples of phonemically distinct words that are identical when written in hiragana/katakana.

Finally, there exists a moraic system[2] which sits between the phonemic and syllabic abstractions. Japanese, especially, have many phenomenons that cannot be adequately modelled unless working in this in-between system.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pitch_accent

[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora_%28linguistics%29

Re: Why Some Languages Sound Faster Than Others

#29

I'd also like to know about reading speed; I'm convinced that subtitles in Polish are displayed for mere microseconds, and the same rapid-fire display is true for various dot-matrix-type signs.

Don't know about polish, but lots of studies discuss this with chinese vs. english. One example:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/6r7k345387j14653/

"The reading rates were about 385 equivalent words per minute for Chinese and 380 words per minute for English for the same scientific textual material (Table 1)"

Probably worth digging more to see if the consensus has changed since then. That one was also done with scientific reading material, so might have limited applicability.

Re: Why Some Languages Sound Faster Than Others

#30
post #6

I was thinking of Java & Lua.

Seriously, though. Has anybody done a similar information density study on programming languages?

Isn't that one of the arguments in favour of Lisp and similar languages? That the information density is so much more conducive to writing expressive code that is still sufficiently concise to keep in your head whilst writing it?
Post reply on HN