Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

twitter.com

141–150 of 470 posts

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#141
post #28

We are rapidly depleting our remaining carbon budget. Can a bitcoiner please explain to me why this is a necessary technological development right now?

Sure, if you are serious, the Bitcoin Standard book is a worthy read. But what’s important is that Bitcoin solves the inflation problem, and proof of work is the only system that we have for getting rid of the Cantillon effect of modern banking: the closer people get to the top of the central banks, the richer they get and destroy life for those who don’t have access to the inner layers of central banking. With Bitcoin it’s really hard to make profit with mining, as there’s a perfect (otherwise useless) competition. Some altcoins are reintroducing the Cantillon effect using proof of stake, and of course the market will decide on which is the more efficient system.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#142
post #7

With a climate crisis the last thing we needed was to make the most effective energy consumption system ever constructed. The whole thing literally works on competing on consuming more energy. No other system works so efficiently towards such goal. What's scary is that the whole thing was designed to be unstoppable. My utopian hope for the future is that we start sending rigs in orbit close to the sun. Since we only…

The worst part is that according to Cambridge some 40% of that is coal power [1]. Frequently the dirtiest coal power in the world, between Xinjiang (no longer, probably...) and Kazakhstan. Coal power causes excess mortality of anywhere between 25 and 278 deaths per TWh generated depending on how you're counting it and (most importantly) where it's generated. [2,3,4] Bitcoin's addiction to dirty coal killed between 15…

> In a few years Bitcoin mining will kill way more people than the number of political dissidents

How are you counting the number of political dissidents saved?

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#143

A slightly tangential question, in regards to Bitcoin and Blockchain, that I (surprisingly?) haven't seen answered/asked: Blockchain is computationally intensive, but why does it has to be used for Bitcoin. There could be another solution, which achieves all its objectives, but isn't necessarily as convoluted. What am I missing? Why not just use SQL databases?

That’s actually a good question and most bitcoin people don’t know the answer. Bitcoin actually does solve a real technical problem but it’s kind of subtle.

The problem is that an SQL database isn’t distributed and trustless, but bitcoin wanted to be. But how does bitcoin accomplish this?

Bitcoin is backed by a blockchain, which is like a linked list of blocks. (Each block containing a list of transactions.) By looking at the history of the chain, you can learn the current balance of every wallet.

Anyone can add a block to the chain, and because bitcoin is distributed it’s possible for two people to add blocks at the same time. When this happens, the chain forks, and there needs to be a way to decide which fork is the “true” one. That’s because the chains associated with each branch of the fork will have different wallet balances, and it’s no good if there’s uncertainty about what your balance is.

In practice one of the two branches is picked randomly, but there’s an attack where someone spends bitcoin to buy something irl, then forks the chain at a point before they bought that thing. If the attacker’s fork were picked as the “true” one, the seller would find the bitcoin they received has disappeared. All the computational work of bitcoin to mitigate this problem.

Whatever way of deciding which fork is the true one must have one very important property: “the current true chain is always the descendent of a previous true chain”. But anyone can join the bitcoin network at any time, and when they do they need some way of knowing what the previous “true chain” was. You can’t just ask, because the person you ask might lie to you, so you need a way to tell which branch is “true“ just by looking at them.

Bitcoin solves this by introducing “proof of work”. To add a block, you need to do some computational work, and the true chain is the one with the most computational work behind it. That means that as long as more than half of the computing power in the bitcoin network is honest (always adding their computational work to the “true” chain), the chain with the most work behind it will be the true one.

Bitcoin goes further and rewards people who add blocks. This incentivizes people to add blocks (and therefore, computational work) to the longest chain they can find. The goal of doing that is to increase the chances that more than half the chain is trustworthy.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#144
post #7

With a climate crisis the last thing we needed was to make the most effective energy consumption system ever constructed. The whole thing literally works on competing on consuming more energy. No other system works so efficiently towards such goal. What's scary is that the whole thing was designed to be unstoppable. My utopian hope for the future is that we start sending rigs in orbit close to the sun. Since we only…

I have a son who is just about 10 years old, and he’s getting to the age where he’s beginning to realize how irrational our world is. We recently had a conversation discussing the fact that we could eradicate hunger and the need for clean water globally, but for a whole host of reasons we have not yet done it. He continues to probe “why“ and all I can say is, essentially, because people are greedy and unmotivated gen…

> and unwilling to sacrifice a modicum for others

I agree with your sentiment but I have to disagree with that phrase. The vast majority* of people of people pay quite a lot of money in taxes, which ostensibly** only exist to help others.

(*) I know the billionaires have their wealth as unrealized gains; I chose my words carefully

(**) I know we all disagree on how that revenue should be spent, but the purpose of taxation is all the same

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#145
post #28

We are rapidly depleting our remaining carbon budget. Can a bitcoiner please explain to me why this is a necessary technological development right now?

People don't have faith in the mainstream financial system and are fleeing for the exits.

It amazes me, how many people seem not to see this point

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#146
post #7

With a climate crisis the last thing we needed was to make the most effective energy consumption system ever constructed. The whole thing literally works on competing on consuming more energy. No other system works so efficiently towards such goal. What's scary is that the whole thing was designed to be unstoppable. My utopian hope for the future is that we start sending rigs in orbit close to the sun. Since we only…

I have a son who is just about 10 years old, and he’s getting to the age where he’s beginning to realize how irrational our world is. We recently had a conversation discussing the fact that we could eradicate hunger and the need for clean water globally, but for a whole host of reasons we have not yet done it. He continues to probe “why“ and all I can say is, essentially, because people are greedy and unmotivated gen…

> We recently had a conversation discussing the fact that we could eradicate hunger and the need for clean water globally, but for a whole host of reasons we have not yet done it.

It depends at what level you mean ‘could.’ Yes, agro-technically we can produce enough food to feed everyone. The issue with world hunger is mostly due to non democratic governments preferring power over feeding their people. At that level, the ‘could’ becomes difficult and maybe impossible.

I think the real answer is that human nature has a dark side that, unless kept in balance by a culture of accountability, will cause harm to others.

A related realization is that, I think, cultures of accountability can be traced back to just luck and a small number of enlightened people that set things up in the past at the right time in the right place. So let’s not pretend things will always get better automatically, and, for those who enjoy freedom under a democratic government, let’s make an effort to cherish and invest in our culture, starting with educating our kids how special this really is.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#147
post #61

PoW mining (at least), must be made illegal. I have no doubts that it will end by becoming illegal, the question is how and when. It boggles the mind that there is now essentially a worldwide tax on semiconductors, which is used to do... nothing of any value whatsoever. And this thing just keeps growing. The effects will be felt in more and more economic sectors. Something will have to give. So, the only question is:…

What else would you make illegal? High fidelity 3d graphics in gaming? It is clearly wasteful and games are hardly any better because of high polygon count, right?

Once anything becomes a significant amount of our energy being used, sure. It should be examined and we should see if we can reduce energy consumption.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#148
post #29

Gold mining consumes 240.61 TWh per year, which is comparable to the electrical energy consumed by a country like Australia. Source: https://globalenergyprize.org/en/2021/11/24/the-bitcoin-gold...

> DePaul University suggests that this number should be closer to 35 tons of CO2 for jewelry, which accounts for roughly 50% of global gold demand. It is assumed that refinement uses a similar amount of power to recycling; therefore, a total of 79.9 MWh is used for the mining and refinement of each gram of gold used in jewelry. Each kilogram of recycled gold produces 37 tons of CO2 and uses 31.3 MWh of energy. This b…

transactions on bitcoin cost basically 0 energy too. the bitcoin energy expenditure is from block creation, which is independent from transactions.

Of course, bitcoin transactions incentivize block creation, but gold transactions also incentivize gold mining to some degree.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#149
post #7

With a climate crisis the last thing we needed was to make the most effective energy consumption system ever constructed. The whole thing literally works on competing on consuming more energy. No other system works so efficiently towards such goal. What's scary is that the whole thing was designed to be unstoppable. My utopian hope for the future is that we start sending rigs in orbit close to the sun. Since we only…

I have a son who is just about 10 years old, and he’s getting to the age where he’s beginning to realize how irrational our world is. We recently had a conversation discussing the fact that we could eradicate hunger and the need for clean water globally, but for a whole host of reasons we have not yet done it. He continues to probe “why“ and all I can say is, essentially, because people are greedy and unmotivated gen…

If you give food to poor areas for free then their farmers go out of business, the area becomes more poor, and they become dependent on aid. Breaking systems always has consequences. It’s not easy.

Re: Bitcoin consumed 134 TWh in total during 2021

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about battery is that you can take the energy out of it. It stores energy. That's the entire point of a battery. How on earth can you do that with Bitcoin? If you can't, Bitcoin isn't a battery, it's a black hole.

Yep. At best, it's a black hole that pays money to the people lucky enough to have spare renewable capacity. But the extra money is of no help to the climate. From an Iceland's point of view, the alternative to using excess geothermal to Bitcoin mine is (i) build smaller geothermal power plants which have even smaller carbon footprints to build/maintain or (ii) reduce the carbon footprint of other countries by courti…

Not just a black hole, but a black hole that rewards people for using spare renewable capacity in a profoundly wasteful way.

The bitcoin network (and all PoS) schemes incentivize waste beyond merely throwing away power: they incentivize e-waste, frivolous cooling and refrigerant use, &c. It's strictly better to just dump excess capacity than it is to use it on PoS schemes.

Post reply on HN