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EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

reuters.com

351–360 of 451 posts

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#351
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norwegian electricity appears to be maybe 1.50 krone per kWh including taxes this winter? Or about 0.17 USD per kWh? That’s not especially high, although it looks to be about double last year.

> That’s not especially high, although it looks to be about double last year. It's almost as if most people have budgets that can't so easily handle a doubling of their bills.

Yeah, imagine that! Thing is, Norway used to have some of the cheapest electricity in Europe, due to population centres being situated right next to a lot of waterfalls. It's still some of the cheapest and most "green" to produce. Add to this that due to power and building policies, i.e. politics, most people use electricity for heating over here (yes, in Arctic Norway...). On top of that heating with wood stoves, or even oil, is highly disincentivized these days. (Also coal isn't a thing in Norway.)

For most Norwegians, the electricity has been considered "ours" and indeed it was mostly state run until the general privatization that started around and after the 90's. So for that reason most people didn't consider it risky to have electricity-only heating in their houses. I bet a lot of people regret that decision today, though.

For the same reason, the newly built cables made to ensure power export to the EU are extremely unpopular over here, as it's hurting people's income directly through electricity bills being doubled overnight. Most people consider it yet another appeasement to the EU, despite Norwegians having voted against joining it twice.

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#352
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar + a few hours of capacity are economical viable to run on a day and night cycle. Each day they charge up, and each day they discharge, with a market price that goes up and down in a similar pattern. This is possible for the southern part of EU, but more so in the southern parts of that (Egypt and below). Further north and solar get displaced by wind as the primary source of energy, and wind do not have a day cy…

Not true. We have 10kw solar panels with 64x ,280ah LIFO batteries. Even in the winter we manage for 90% using only solar/battery power. We have a detached family house in the Netherlands using slightly above average. Our monthly bill is about 20 euros max. I build the entire setup myself for about 10k euros.

90% is not good enough, when your total increased due to heating.

Oh, you do not heat with electricity? I hope you counted that heat source in CO2e...

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#353
post #249
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas based Power plants are for providing capacity quickly when needed, and the cost is good compared to lithium batteries: 1 KW Gas is 0,0639€ 1 KW Lithium Battery is ~105€ There is an incoming lithium shortage which means either the price will rise sharply, or you have to build other types of batteries.

Those are the wrong units in two different ways at once. KW = power, kWh = energy = integrated power over time Batteries are reusable. I see claims varying from 2,000, to more than 10,000 times. That reduces the battery cost to between €0.0525 and €0.0105 / kWh.

Batteries have both kW (speed of charge/discharge) and kWh properties. For instance, Lazard's LCOS studies [1] list both values.

It's not illogical to compare a battery with the production it's supposed to replace.

[1]: https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-...

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#354
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble is that these hydrocarbon will just be burned like all others, causing GHG release. If you want something actually green, try ammonia via electrochemical methods, from hydrogen. This is also why these gas investments are a trap. We're already generally low on gas for winter and increasing the intake will not help, plus any operational emissions is too much and has to be optimized. 270 g CO2e is a plenty i…

If methane is manufactured from CO₂ and H₂O, there is no net GHG release, it's just storage, same as ammonia or pure hydrogen (though large methane leaks would be a problem). IMO, methane is good, if we are actively transitioning to manufactured methane. It's a plug-in substitute with existing distribution networks, storage and consumers, easy and cheap to handle. Though efficiency is pretty bad, so it's mostly good…

Methane is not manufactured from straight gases. Usually it is either mined or steam reformed from oil or coal. You can see the problem - mining with concomitant pollution and release of previously bound CO2 when it's burned.

Attempting to do pure electrochemical reforming is extremely energy intensive, and requires rare metal membranes. As well as a way to concentrate CO2 from atmosphere reliably. (The Sleipnir problem.)

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#355
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully, fusion energy will be reality way before we will be close to depleting known uranium resources.

At the current pace, 30,000 years sounds about right,

It's not that bad, currently at breakeven point for laser fusion and close to that for magnetic containment fusion. Half a century should be enough, but we lack the time.

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but this just green washing.

I call this real-life decisions. If someone has better ideas how to progress and unite 27 countries with different levels of transition challenges and different views on nuclear and other sources, please submit them. Otherwise, being pedantic and negative about non-perfect solutions while not taking into account the complexity of getting a consensus with 27 members is not helpful to anyone.

It is even less helpful to tout a half-measure as a solution. Gas buys us at most a decade if done perfectly.

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#357
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is counter productive to keeping the earth habitable. This "considered middle ground" ideology is more dangerous than denial. Like MLK said about "white moderates".

The perfect is the enemy of the good. The required reduction is 99.9% of greenhouse emissions for the next millennium. No institution has ever had that power, few have lasted that long, and even those few which have lasted that long underwent significant policy changes in that time. If we can’t make saving the planet cheap enough that even the greedy and selfish prefer to do that, then we can’t win at all. But half-a…

Maximally 10 extra years and waste of a lot of labor and money that could be put into building and developing nuclear power plants and more renewables.

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#358
post #314

Nuclear investments desperately need to be recognized as green so you don't have oxymoronic policies similar to Germany's current plan where you're decommissioning nuclear to become more "green" yet producing much more carbon dioxide.

Europe is small and densely populated. They can't afford to take the risk of having large swaths of land rendered un-inhabitable due to nuclear accidents. If there's one thing the last 60 odd years of nuclear experience has taught us, it is that Human organizations and societies cannot be trusted with maintaining high standards of safety in the long term that is required for fission power plants - even the Japanese w…

The fact remains that the coal plants that replace the German nuclear plants emit more radiation than the nuclear plants ever did. Nuclear isn't being abandoned because of economics, it's because of fear. Irrational fear at that, for many European countries.

There have been two serious nuclear incidents that have rendered land uninhabitable. One was a Soviet reactor that was already outdated at the time it was put to use, the other was the result of a tsunami. The entire field of research has been put on hold since Chernobyl, but the problems that caused the disaster have long since been solved.

Nuclear reactors have several advantages over solar and wind. Not taking up as much space, for one. There's also the ability to work during windless nights without having to install massive battery arrays.

The existing energy grid also isn't prepared for every house generating their own electricity. I know of several cities that simply refuse to connect more solar panels to the grid because the load cannot be distributed. The necessary expansion and reconstruction of the grid is planned to take about thirty years if work starts today.

Solar is great if solar panels are in constant use for over ten years, but advances in technology and deterioration of the panels themselves make many money wise consumers switch out their panels much earlier, sometimes even before they've earned back their production and transportation costs. We're just offsetting the environmental damage, moving it to mining and production facilities in China where we don't have to care.

Wind is the only green technology that I think is actually green enough not to be ruined by private economic incentives, but the NIMBY factor is huge. You're right that Europe is densely populated in comparison, and you need quite a lot of distance from the giant blades to not be affected by the many stressor such plants create, like the constant whooshing, the moving shadows and the constant low hums that come with most of them. Placing them at sea is a great solution for all of those problems, though.

There is no holy grail in energy. We'll go solar if price is more important than the environment, wind if availability is more important than the surrounding inhabitants, or coal and gas when we just need power without all the complaining.

Meanwhile, we'll always be planning some nuclear plants in Europe, because hospitals need radioactive compounds. The current ones are deteriorating but they have to keep operating because nobody wants to build new plants, but at some point we'll either have to build some at some point or not offer certain kinds of care in certain areas anymore.

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is such a minute amount of carbon in comparison to the energy produced by a gas plant in generating power Citation needed. A gas plant dwarves solar in energy output. The whole point is that solar does have an emission and burying your head in the sand does no good when we are comparing solutions that don’t emit during generation but do to make (solar vs wind + batteries vs nuclear?).

Yes, solar has emissions. But in your previous message you implied that it is larger than it is by making a deceptively long list of items. These are the number of total CO2 emited per energy produced (gCO2e/kWh): - Nuclear and eolic, 4. - Solar, 6. - Gas CCS, 78. - Hydro, 97. - Coal CCS, 109. Citation, as requested: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-017-0032-9 Implying that solar, nuclear or wind have emissions…

Note that nobody really pulled off large scale CCS, so we should be comparing standard gas, such as closer too 400-ish.

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#360

For anyone wondering why gas, it's gas only in specific cases. > Investments in natural gas power plants would also be deemed green if they produce emissions below 270g of CO2 equivalent per kilowatt hour (kWh), replace a more polluting fossil fuel plant, receive a construction permit by Dec. 31 2030 and plan to switch to low-carbon gases by the end of 2035.

Gas power plants are currently a cornerstone of the Danish green electricity plan. The idea is to base everything primarily on wind and solar, and to build an extensive direct current distribution network to exchange power with neighboring countries. Even with all that, there will still be periods where the sun does not shine and the wind doesn't blow. Gas power plants are then supposed to take over in those periods,…

Cool story, but it is a lie. Biogas manufactured from biowaste, even if done perfectly, is insufficient by a factor of 4.

You need some way of manufacturing stored energy in accessible form. These plants should be already in development and being built to hit that target...

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