Web3 is centralized • Hacker News Board

Re: Web3 is centralized

#281

Post by cinquemb » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 1:34 PM UTC

exo762 wrote: post #256

cinquemb wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standards only really define what should be done at the interface or what the function inputs and outputs should be, but don't really define the internals of the functions. For example inside of a malicious approve function call, you could hardcode a list of popular addresses that also approved those tokens if the msg.sender is holding (balanceOf calls) them and even potentially then have transfer functions calls…

Both of you are wrong. ZK fundamentally does not allow to hide the rules (the code). It only allows to hide particular executions. So yes, while you can have an ERC20 interface and some censorious garbage inside (I look at you, USDC), you can't hide that fact from observers.

The issue is that there are people blindly interacting with malicious contracts, which is more of a social problem and not a technical one. There are people now who for example, don't approve random token addrs that they haven't decompiled or which had the source available… i know, shocking…

Did you respond to the right chain of comments, none of us mentioned anything related to ZK solutions (chains line mina or rollups or otherwise)?

Re: Web3 is centralized

#282

Post by notpachet » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 1:37 PM UTC

quantum_mcts wrote: post #280

So the argument starts with a (rather bizarre) claim that blockchains are centralized because one have to use the protocol that the rest of the network is using. The argument goes on with an attempt to contrast blockchains with the "web as it exists" and claim that one can "speak whatever protocol you want" in it -- with a caveat that "one have to put significant work" to convince others to use it. It is quite ironic…

I agree that there's a little confusion in the article regarding the role of protocols in the decentralization equation. That said, I do think the larger point (global consensus protocols are just another form of centralization) is valid and worth discussing.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#283

Post by CuriousCosmic » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 1:40 PM UTC

input_sh wrote: post #130

everfree wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also Aztec Network, and Tornado Cash, and Zcash, and soon Starkware, and... I'm surprised so many people on Hacker News apparently still believe that you can "see all transactions" on every blockchain. It really only takes some surface level research to find working, production blockchains/cryptocurrencies that use one of several types of cryptography to hide that data, plus if you're using a pseudonymous blockch…

Okay but like who cares? Are any of those even in the top 30 cryptocurrencies by market cap? Is anyone speaking about them in the context of Web3 or is it all ETH, XRP and maybe two more? From my blissfully uninformed mind, the only time these cryptocurrencies pop up is precisely this: as a counterargument to the popular ones, where you can see all the transactions. They're fringes even among the fringe that is crypt…

A lot of these smaller networks are on top of or connected to top 10 chains.

A number of the top 10 networks will eventually (~5-10 year time frame) get privacy preserving transactions however the space is still very much in development and it's a bit easier to reason about the network and what changes to make next when you can see what the users are doing. I know at the very least, IOG (the company currently leading Cardano development) is doing privacy preserving smart contracts research with the intent that it eventually becomes part of the protocol.

There's a lot for Layer 1 protocols to accomplish as it is so the space is largely delegating privacy chain research/functionality to L2s for the time being.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#284

Post by elevenoh » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 1:42 PM UTC

r_hoods_ghost wrote: post #9

The main issue with "Web3" is that it moves records of transactions from many private places to one public place. Sure this one place may not be controlled by a single entity, but it facilitates tracking at an unprecedented level. Cryptocurrencies are the ultimate example of this and are an absolute boon to tax collectors, forensic accountants and fraudsters. In our current economy financial transactions are recorded…

Are you aware that any level of privacy in crypto transactions already exists?

From completely private to completely public.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#285

Post by elevenoh » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 1:43 PM UTC

me_me_mu_mu wrote: post #37

r_hoods_ghost wrote: post #9

The main issue with "Web3" is that it moves records of transactions from many private places to one public place. Sure this one place may not be controlled by a single entity, but it facilitates tracking at an unprecedented level. Cryptocurrencies are the ultimate example of this and are an absolute boon to tax collectors, forensic accountants and fraudsters. In our current economy financial transactions are recorded…

So if I don't trust Big Tech, I'm somehow supposed to trust groups of sketchy people who do things like give up their US citizenship (as an immigrant to the USA - the privilege is real) to move to {insert sketchy country or a known haven for certain activities - its legal there!} so they can now facilitate millions of dollars moving each day outside of any government jurisdiction.

You seem to label group/people rather than evaluating ideas for what they are.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#286

Post by elevenoh » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 1:45 PM UTC

This is a static, no-innovation lens through which to view the world/web.

The future has always belonged to bold creators. Not pessimistic, static-lens detractors.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#287

Post by elevenoh » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 1:46 PM UTC

basisword wrote: post #118

The cynicism in these threads on this topic is really something. It seems to correlate with an overall change in mindset in the tech space (maybe driven by the younger generation?). I remember when startups and making lots of money was cheered on HN. A decade ago people would have been looking at the positives of this tech, figuring out how they could get involved and how they could make money and try to make it succ…

True. What's discussed & lauded on here is more zero sum & identity politics based than ever. Just like San Francisco. Sad to see.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#288

Post by chx » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 1:47 PM UTC

The problem with web3 is not that it's centralized -- that's irrelevant.

The fundamental problem with all crypto"currencies" is as follows: the world uses real currencies and there is only one way this enters into the world of crypto"currencies": by someone selling a coin to someone else. Thus, regardless of what crypto"currency" we are talking about, it would be a zero sum game if not for transaction fees. However, with transaction fees it becomes a scam because there's a set of players who are guaranteed to win and there's another set of players who, en masse, are guaranteed to lose. It utterly doesn't matter what you do with your crypto"currency", this is the underpinning scam of it.

And once you entered the game, the only way for you to not lose money is to find a greater fool who will take over your crypto"currency", everyone who owns some becomes a proponent of it. It's an ingenious scam.

And no, nothing in the real world is like this. In the real world, the amount of currency increases when a bank extends a loan which then creates more value by such things as being using as capital, allowing you to enjoy a home now instead of decades later and so forth. Also, stocks are not a zero sum game -- companies actually create value and so forth.

Re: Web3 is centralized

#289

Post by jiggunjer » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 1:48 PM UTC

input_sh wrote: post #130

everfree wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also Aztec Network, and Tornado Cash, and Zcash, and soon Starkware, and... I'm surprised so many people on Hacker News apparently still believe that you can "see all transactions" on every blockchain. It really only takes some surface level research to find working, production blockchains/cryptocurrencies that use one of several types of cryptography to hide that data, plus if you're using a pseudonymous blockch…

Okay but like who cares? Are any of those even in the top 30 cryptocurrencies by market cap? Is anyone speaking about them in the context of Web3 or is it all ETH, XRP and maybe two more? From my blissfully uninformed mind, the only time these cryptocurrencies pop up is precisely this: as a counterargument to the popular ones, where you can see all the transactions. They're fringes even among the fringe that is crypt…

Doesn't the lightning network used by btc allow obfuscation constructs?

Re: Web3 is centralized

#290

Post by notpachet » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 1:48 PM UTC

elevenoh wrote: post #286

This is a static, no-innovation lens through which to view the world/web. The future has always belonged to bold creators. Not pessimistic, static-lens detractors.

The future belongs to all of us, it's just a question of which kind of future is equitable for the largest subset of the human population. One person's acceptable externalities could constitute their neighbor's breaking point. It's fine to say that creation and innovation are Good Things, all else being equal. But we need to ensure that the externalities of new creations are justified in light of the social good they bring.