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Are cryptocurrencies to blame for high GPU prices?

blog.libove.org

321–330 of 352 posts

Re: Are cryptocurrencies to blame for high GPU prices?

#321
"The correlation is stronger for Bitcoin than for Ethereum" indicates that there is no direct causation since GPUs are useless for Bitcoin mining.

The author suggests that the demand for ASICs may contribute to the chip shortage which then drives up GPU prices, but that doesn't explain the lack of correlation with CPU prices.

Re: Are cryptocurrencies to blame for high GPU prices?

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once they successfully do the attack, they can take over the blockchains and allocate all cryptocurrencies to themselves, cash out, and it'd probably register as a good profit on their income statements. So they're going to manage to not sell any cards (without disclosing that as a public company), set up the infrastructure and do a 51% attack on bitcoin in front of everyone, then "cash out" as if there would be pe…

I hadn't considered this before, but that's a really compelling reason that a 51% attack would not be worth anyone's while. Seems like a successful 51% attack would just wreck bitcoin, and there wouldn't be any way to cash out.

you only 51% this stuff if the goal isn't to make money, but something else.

Re: Are cryptocurrencies to blame for high GPU prices?

#323
post #9
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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This would show up in the CPUs. But their prices are stable.

For me, that indicates that it's not a "general chip shortage" issue (i.e. not "ASICs are making the chip shortage worse" either), at which point https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29766829 makes it hard to see the correlation as caused by cryptocurrencies.

Re: Are cryptocurrencies to blame for high GPU prices?

#324
post #304
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPUs are manufacturable. The market is meant to signal to manufacturers that this is profitable to make more of, and thus, more would become available in the future. Unfortunately, the current world events conspired to not allow this balance to happen - chip shortages and logistics problems etc. Give it a few more years, and it will balance back out.

Crypto is carefully designed to model Parkinson's Law. (Proof of) Work always grows to fill the compute available.

Network difficulty adjusts to pull the demand curve to the right.

That makes the GPU market supply-constrained. Any increase in supply will be met with a lower price equilibrium which will result in more GPUs bought and used for mining. Which results in a higher THR which will be met with additional increases in network difficulty which will pull the demand curve to the right ad infinitum.

I'm not sure how much more economics 101 I can make this. As long as GPUs are part of the system, the GPU market will be supply-constrained. The supply and demand curves will continue to drift to the right.

Re: Are cryptocurrencies to blame for high GPU prices?

#325
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if no existing coins switch to PoS (spoiler: many will), the PoS coins will suck up fee-paying users from the PoW coins, reducing the returns on mining, which will result in lower network hashpower. It may also bring a second-order effect of reducing the prices of PoW coins, which will reduce dollar-denominated block rewards on those networks, and that will bring hashpower down even farther.

ETH continues to grow its hashrate every day. Even in the face of growing competition, hashrate grows. It's an interesting theory, but there's no evidence of you being right. We already have many extremely high market-cap PoS coins, many with more features than ETH will have even after it's PoS transition, yet PoW hash continues to skyrocket.

Because ETH is still the king, and those coins haven't proven themselves yet. Next year ETH will be PoS and there will be no other major PoW coins outside of Bitcoin in the top 10. At which point, other PoS coins will lose their competitive advantage. So from a user and developer perspective, there's no reason to jump ship.

Re: Are cryptocurrencies to blame for high GPU prices?

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even after a decade, users here still don't know the basics of how blockchains work. Lol "A GPU attack on BTC" Jésus help us

There is no reason enough GPUs can't do it. Yes it is more expensive then getting the same hash rate via ASICs but the profitability off a 51% attack is a lot higher and NVIDIA would get their own chips at a reduced rate.

Yeah bro enough balloons can lift a house.

Re: Are cryptocurrencies to blame for high GPU prices?

#327
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s less significant than you might think as US GDP is almost 1/4 of global GDP and foreign countries don’t keep that many USD on hand. Aka even in global terms US GDP is vast. Also, Bitcoin has significantly more vulnerabilities than just a 51% attack or a crash as nodes need to be connected to the internet and therefore can at least in theory be hacked. What exactly happens after that point is anyones guess, but…

> That’s less significant than you might think as US GDP is almost 1/4 of global GDP and foreign countries don’t keep that many USD on hand. Aka even in global terms US GDP is vast. Sure, but the value of the dollar (like everything else) is in how easy it is to get (supply). The US GDP is not a measure of the supply of dollars on the market, it is a measure of how often those dollars are exchanged. > Bitcoin has sig…

> Sure, but the value of the dollar (like everything else) is in how easy it is to get (supply). The US GDP is not a measure of the supply of dollars on the market, it is a measure of how often those dollars are exchanged.

The US GDP directly translates into the amount of taxes paid. Suppose a 50% drop in the value of USD happens. If nothing else happens taxes increase by 100%, and people need to acquire more USD which drives the value of the currency up.

You might wonder about economic hardship, but historically that causes deflation. +/- 2% per year without printing money is easy, but there is a reason you don’t see huge swings without the government printing money.

> counterfeiting

An issue for any physical currency but electronic currency actually operates independently. Trying to counterfeit large quantities of cash is therefore surprisingly difficult even for nation stale level actors. A great fake bill can get passed around, 10 billion in fake bills which is still a trivial amount would trip up various monitoring systems.

Re: Are cryptocurrencies to blame for high GPU prices?

#328
post #254

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How many years has etherium been putting off proof of stake now? Two? Three?

I gave up on crypto because of the failed promise of proof of stake in ethereum especially. We are talking 2015 here. AFAIR it’s been minimum 6 years. Tezos has been looking interesting though I never looked in detail anymore. OCaml based, COQ checked code base and truly proof-of-stake last time I checked? Did anyone play with it in here? I know Ubisoft jumped on the lets-create-artificial-scarcity-where-we-can NFT h…

Tezos has the largest grass roots adoption after ethereum for nft art. It’s very under the radar so I’m glad you asked. It has a burgeoning ecosystem and many users on ethereum are aware and have used tezos. As tezos ecosystem evolves, I believe it’s going siphon off a large amount of users from ethereum.

Re: Are cryptocurrencies to blame for high GPU prices?

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a circular argument. Why are CPU prices a confounding factor?

one can imagine factors that would cause both CPU and GPU prices to increase together. for example general purpose computing demand or supply-side constraints might cause all chip prices to rise. if those non-crypto factors were confounding (say also happened to correlate with crypto-prices maybe due to some third unknown factor) then we would see CPU and GPU prices rise in response to crypto prices. we do not see th…

Ok thanks, so it's like saying that we can ignore anything to do with manufacturing?

Re: Are cryptocurrencies to blame for high GPU prices?

#330
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, for many products, high demand leads to lower unit prices as manufacturers become more efficient. Since we're a decade into GPU mining, there's been a lot of time for manufacturers to adjust. While so far they have not been able to keep up with demand, I don't think it's clear that they never will.

Sorry, not following. Can you explain how efficiencies in GPU production interact with network difficulty to produce lower GPU prices? I'm not finding much in the literature.

What makes hash-based proof of work function is that to produce some number of hashes you need to use some amount of real-world resources. In practice, the two main resource inputs are electricity and computational hardware. If hardware is scarce, as it is now, the hardware will be a large proportion of mining cost, while the more efficiently hardware can be produced, the more of the cost is electricity.
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