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Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

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Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#301

Post by markdown »

bronco21016 wrote: post #147
bambax wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great video, thanks. I find it weird that we learn so little about aviation when the industry has so much to teach us. The checklist manifesto was a great attempt to try to implement checklists in the hospital and other places, but from CRM to workload management there is so much to benefit from what the airline industry has pioneered.

As someone who works in the airline industry I find it infuriating when other industries don’t match my expectations. I saw behind the curtain at a couple of medium sized online retailers. The lack of process and procedure was just astounding to me. I know some airline pilots have had success in consulting in hospitals but maybe there exists a broader market for that service.

The closest thing I can think of is HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) in the food industry.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#302

Post by wiedehopf »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #214
amelius wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this game should be part of the UX of cockpit controls: find the error, or lose your permits.

In the US this is explicitly part of training for major airlines. They will line up failures in The simulator and have the pilots solve/fly through the issue. You can’t fly until you pass these checks

Is it really unexpected failures or do they discuss scenario / do you expect one of a few typical scenarios?

Really throwing failures at pilots without them knowing what's going on seems to mean too many fail or rather there is not enough time to train pre-discussed scenarios and do scenarios that aren't announced.

I'm not sure it's really what you'd want.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#303

Post by Pasorrijer »

deepGem wrote: post #294
dehrmann wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How you get to this level of incompetence flying a 777 is far beyond my understanding. The article said--it's the smallest plane Emirates flies.

Well, I wouldn't doubt one of the best airlines on the planet. However, the article claims that they hire pilots with lower flying hours as they cannot find experienced pilots like American or United does. I fail to understand this. Can't they just hire experienced pilots from other airlines instead of hiring the inexperienced ones ?

Comes down to a few things. First, money. Second, location. Third, skill.

The Middle East doesn't have nearly the pool of pilots to start with compared to North America, and even NA is suffering from an extreme shortage of pilots. (Wonder why the airlines no longer fly to your small town? Probably because of a shortage of pilots)

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#304

Post by t0mas88 »

deepGem wrote: post #294
dehrmann wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How you get to this level of incompetence flying a 777 is far beyond my understanding. The article said--it's the smallest plane Emirates flies.

Well, I wouldn't doubt one of the best airlines on the planet. However, the article claims that they hire pilots with lower flying hours as they cannot find experienced pilots like American or United does. I fail to understand this. Can't they just hire experienced pilots from other airlines instead of hiring the inexperienced ones ?

They can't, because their working conditions are terrible compared to those other airlines. Nobody with thousands of hours of jet time would ever switch from a US or EU legacy carrier to someone like Emirates.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#305

Post by [deleted] »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #214
amelius wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this game should be part of the UX of cockpit controls: find the error, or lose your permits.

In the US this is explicitly part of training for major airlines. They will line up failures in The simulator and have the pilots solve/fly through the issue. You can’t fly until you pass these checks

[deleted]

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#306

Post by Pasorrijer »

wiedehopf wrote: post #302
dghlsakjg wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US this is explicitly part of training for major airlines. They will line up failures in The simulator and have the pilots solve/fly through the issue. You can’t fly until you pass these checks

Is it really unexpected failures or do they discuss scenario / do you expect one of a few typical scenarios? Really throwing failures at pilots without them knowing what's going on seems to mean too many fail or rather there is not enough time to train pre-discussed scenarios and do scenarios that aren't announced. I'm not sure it's really what you'd want.

It's truly unexpected failures,in the context of flying the plane. Basically every failure state in flying has a procedure, and as a pilot you're expected to memorize some, and know how to find and follow the checklist or red page for all emergency situations. Beyond that, you have to know how to assess and evaluate any emergency because that's your job.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#307

Post by inside6 »

throwaway898989 wrote: post #281
azth wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Has lower-level officials that accept bribes How many countries does that leave? And why only low level, why not also high level? Doesn't that rule out the US as well? > - Has had airlines and planes for fewer than 5 decades Also sounds arbitrary.

I am expat in south east asia and his comment is correct low level officials taking bribes means you can do stuff like never wear a seatbelt, just pay the cop $20 USD if you get pulled over. get pulled up for smoking indoors? $20 USD. run over an illegal immigrant and kill them? USD 1000 to have their records completely erased. Sim card? $5 USD cash. rape? what? the police here hung up on my friend on a 911 call beca…

No post body was provided.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#308

Post by Pasorrijer »

azth wrote: post #258
Pasorrijer wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal list is Tier 1 US, Canadian, British and German carriers as well as Qantas. Probably throw Air France and KLM in too. In Africa, Ethiopian would be the only airline I would fly if I had to fly an African airline. I probably would have had a middle eastern airline on the list before I did a project with them last year. After that, I learned a lot that made me stick to the list above.

> I probably would have had a middle eastern airline on the list before I did a project with them last year. After that, I learned a lot that made me stick to the list above. Are you able to elaborate? My email address is in my profile if you want to share in private.

Sure, in vague terms, there is a giant cultural problem in the Middle East where locals don't have the education or training or (more importantly) drive to actually do work, so most good employees are expats, but almost all leadership is locals because of hiring rules and nepotism.

Companies are actively trying to change it, but they aren't there yet and it's an uphill battle that has to start basically at the kindergarten level.

That culture also drives a major "image" focus, where how things look is more important that how things actually operate. I'm not from the Middle East, but this is what was communicated to us by our client / locals we interviewed.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#309

Post by t0mas88 »

jacquesm wrote: post #57
SkyMarshal wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't matter was in system. You run your checklists and configure for your own flight / your own departure etc. I am not a pilot, but that's exactly what I thought when I read the memo too. They should be putting responsibility for the next flight on the next flight's crew, not the prior flight's crew. Train each crew to assume the plane they're prepping for their next flight is FUBAR in every way, checklist e…

Yes, assuming that the previous crew left you a 'perfect and ready to fly plane' is one hell of an assumption to make. With tiny little pieces to collect if it ends up being wrong. Emirates has a pretty good rep but this doesn't help.

Emirates may have a good score on some passenger metrics but they don't have a good rep with most pilots.

There has been another incident where an Emirates crew lacked any kind of basic aircraft handling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Flight_521

Their main problem is a very bad rep for working conditions. Crews being overly fatigued, arcane labour laws in UAE, that makes it harder for them to hire pilots and to retain experienced pilots. Combined with a local market that doesn't have a big aviation history so less people to build on.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#310

Post by p_l »

azth wrote: post #252
WalterBright wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad flew for 20 years in the Air Force. He more than once defied procedure that would have put him in jeopardy on a flight. He told me he was not going to die because of a bureaucratic rule written by someone whose ass was safely behind a desk. One was when formation flying, pilots were to keep both eyes on the lead, and mimic his flying. This led to several crashes where the whole team died because the lead flew…

> That wasn't going to happen to my dad, either, and he kept a length of iron pipe at hand to beat the student into letting go of the controls. That's awesome haha. Hope your dad is well.

The Instructor's Stick is well regarded tradition all over the world.

One problem AF447 faced was that the closest thing to instructor who could whack the panicking pilot returned to cabin too late to fix it...

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