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Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

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Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#271

Post by GekkePrutser »

WalterBright wrote: post #184
kchoudhu wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rings true. I live in Doha and a very good family friend is an instructor in the local flag carrier's training program. He was recently bemoaning the following situation: 1. There was a go-around on some flight or other (for good reason!) 2. Management interpreted this as a failure, and announced that every go-around will now have a full post-mortem with involved pilots requiring more sim time. 3. Pilots now thi…

My dad flew for 20 years in the Air Force. He more than once defied procedure that would have put him in jeopardy on a flight. He told me he was not going to die because of a bureaucratic rule written by someone whose ass was safely behind a desk. One was when formation flying, pilots were to keep both eyes on the lead, and mimic his flying. This led to several crashes where the whole team died because the lead flew…

Yes about the airbus but the problem there is also that there is no feedback, so the second pilot can't feel what the other one is doing.

But in that case (I think you mean AF447) there was a lot more going on with confusing warning indications. They did however fly a perfectly functioning aircraft straight into the sea.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#272

Post by WalterBright »

jquery wrote: post #264
WalterBright wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting comparing this with the 737MAX crashes. There, I regularly get excoriated on HN for suggesting that the pilots not knowing to turn off the stab trim system when it goes haywire is unreasonable, despite it being a "memory item" and despite Emergency Airworthiness Directives reiterating this.

I made that same point repeatedly, to mixed reception. Boeing is absolutely at fault but the airlines that had crashes were also guilty of cutting corners. Boeing is (rightly) held to a high standard. I try to fly on airlines that have similar high standards for the operations.

Of course Boeing shares blame for this. But so do the parts suppliers, the installers of the bad part, and the pilots. All of that had to fail for the crash to happen.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#273

Post by lovasoa »

teeray wrote: post #208
thewarrior wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know nothing about aviation but it seems to me like the auto pilot software could use a lot of improvement. Why on earth would you give the pilot an instruction that would almost certainly lead to a crash ? It seems like there aren’t enough sanity checks. Any such dodgy situation should trigger an alarm and disengage the auto pilot imo.

By my reading, auto pilot was not involved. Flight Directors are basically an overlay on the instruments showing where the pitch, roll, etc. of the plane needs to be to achieve the programmed navigational fixes.

Is there any situation when it would make sense to have the flight director set to an altitude of zero before takeoff ? If not, then maybe it shouldn't stay switched on and set to zero after landing when the crew leaves the cabin ? Couldn't it be reset automatically ?

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#274

Post by GekkePrutser »

MBCook wrote: post #260
bumby wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s because from a safety standpoint, procedural controls are not preferable to engineered controls. PPE controls are lower still. It would be like alleviating a motorcycle manufacturer from responsibility of a bad design by claiming riders wouldn’t be hurt if they were wearing all their protective gear. It may be true while also being sub-standard design practice for a safety-critical system.

Isn’t that exactly what Tesla does? Deflect all autopilot/FSD blame on users because they were supposed to be “in charge“?

Yeah and at the same time marketing it as "Full Self Driving". :x

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#276

Post by GekkePrutser »

redis_mlc wrote: post #132
Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to know what the Ryanair pilots are ordered to do by their higher ups. Been on a few of them in Europe and they all hit the runway pretty hard coming back down.

FYI: firm landings are actually correctly done, especially with rain or drizzle. It should not feel like a crash though. The worst landing I ever had was when I landed with no sensation of touching down on the runway (a zero feet rate of descent.) Both myself and my CFI went nuts trying to figure out if we were down, or still flying along the runway and about to bounce.

Is there no contact indicator or anything?

I've never flown anything where I couldn't just look out of the window to check so I don't know but it feels like there should be :)

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#277

Post by [deleted] »

quacked wrote: post #176
ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what “these types of carriers” means here. I know there are low-cost carriers and I wouldn’t be surprised if they had less-experienced pilots, etc. But to me Emirates strikes me as a well-funded, reputable operation. Does he mean Middle Eastern carriers?

If the country you're in: - Prioritizes "face" or "reputation" above literal accuracy - Has lower-level officials that accept bribes - Has had airlines and planes for fewer than 5 decades Assume any complex high-risk engineering system run by that culture will occasionally fail in major ways.

[deleted]

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#278

Post by GekkePrutser »

cm2187 wrote: post #68
onphonenow wrote: post #16

The memo from Emirates about not setting altitude in system to airport altitude is so weird. I really hope that's not the actual message Emirates is putting out there. It doesn't matter was in system. You run your checklists and configure for your own flight / your own departure etc. Memo should be to training / recruitment - where did you find these pilots to fly a 777? So they obviously didn't pre-flight the flight…

Isn’t there some sort of reset settings button when you start a new flight? Like is there any setting set by the previous crew that should be left as is by the new crew?

Most of the switches are physical selectors and dials that aren't motorized so it would be impossible to reset those. And a partial reset would probably be even more confusing.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#279

Post by JshWright »

sokoloff wrote: post #10

Pilot (piston engine, with only around 20 hours of light jet dual). As a pax on this flight, I might not have noticed much unless I was looking out the window. This seems like a fault of the crew (obviously), but probably more on the PNF (pilot not flying) than the PF (pilot flying). Article says 4 pilots were on board, but fails to mention that 2 of them (relief pilots) were likely not in the cockpit on the departur…

> Article says 4 pilots were on board, but fails to mention that 2 of them (relief pilots) were likely not in the cockpit on the departure.

The 777-300ER has two jump-seats in the cockpit. I believe standard practice is for the "off duty" crew to be in the cockpit, in the jump-seats, for takeoff and landing (basically, any time the "sterile cockpit" rule would apply).

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#280

Post by aurizon »

Arab societies are intensely hierarchical = orders from down from the top, there is no counterflow upwards. This is exacerbated by the political appointees that populate the top ranks. With an incompetent's political appointee as captain, his authority can not be challenged - even as planes crash. This manifests in quasi military groups, the the civilian air forces, which have a preponderance of ex-military officers at the top.(it has been a long time since the last war, so the older air force people move into the civilian fleet and retain their culture) These political appointees pay competent pilots to pass exams, even flying ones. This forum discusses this culture as it manifested in Arab armies repeated losses to an enemy with fewer men and less equipment, but with a culture that demanded a win with no hierarchical encumbrances. https://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars
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