Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 451 posts

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#41

Post by user_7832 »

yholio wrote: post #35
nathan_phoenix wrote: post #12

For anyone wondering why gas, it's gas only in specific cases. > Investments in natural gas power plants would also be deemed green if they produce emissions below 270g of CO2 equivalent per kilowatt hour (kWh), replace a more polluting fossil fuel plant, receive a construction permit by Dec. 31 2030 and plan to switch to low-carbon gases by the end of 2035.

> plan to switch to low-carbon gases by the end of 2035. It's a handout to the dying hydrogen industry of which EU was a huge supporter of. The electric revolution killed any chances of hydrogen powered cars, and the new hype in the industry is using excess renewable electricity to store in hydrogen batteries, which would then supply process heat or residential heating with zero emissions. This is all a bunch of crap…

I'm curious on why you're pessimistic on hydrogen. I agree that cars are likely not the best use of fuel cells (heavy vehicles are able to utilize H2's strengths much more), but in a future based on renewables hydrogen allows you to store energy in a very dense way. Lithium batteries are acceptably heavy/expensive at small scales, but how do you think will supply vary to meet demand in the medium-long term without a chemical fuel (hydrogen/ammonia)?

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#42

Post by ClumsyPilot »

alkonaut wrote: post #37
freeflight wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> independent of eastern natural gas. It's interesting how trade relationships that are centuries old, are now seen in a negative context solely on a foreign policy basis that's often dictated from across the Atlantic. Particularly when they go completely contrary to the other stated goal; Climate change. Western Europe has been dependent on Eastern Europe's resources for a very long time, as Siberia is the largest c…

Not sure what your point is: once no fossil fuel is used to heat Europe (which has to be very soon), something else will. The replacement could be anything but it seems unlikely to be coming from Siberia. Europe need a to take some quick and uncomfortable decisions here. It can’t be acceptable to have homes heated with fossil fuel anywhere in the rich part of the EU at least, even just a decade from now. This was jus…

Theway government grants work in UK is, the richer you are, the more you get from the government. They freauently are offset against your taxable income, so they are most effective if you are in highest tax bracket.

Conversely, poorest people rent the shittiest and least efficient homes, but they don't have the choice to replace the heating system - that's the landlorsa decision. But he doen't pay the utilities, the tenants do, so why would he care?

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#43

Post by mlyle »

alkonaut wrote: post #37
freeflight wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> independent of eastern natural gas. It's interesting how trade relationships that are centuries old, are now seen in a negative context solely on a foreign policy basis that's often dictated from across the Atlantic. Particularly when they go completely contrary to the other stated goal; Climate change. Western Europe has been dependent on Eastern Europe's resources for a very long time, as Siberia is the largest c…

Not sure what your point is: once no fossil fuel is used to heat Europe (which has to be very soon), something else will. The replacement could be anything but it seems unlikely to be coming from Siberia. Europe need a to take some quick and uncomfortable decisions here. It can’t be acceptable to have homes heated with fossil fuel anywhere in the rich part of the EU at least, even just a decade from now. This was jus…

> Not sure what your point is: once no fossil fuel is used to heat Europe (which has to be very soon), something else will. The replacement could be anything but it seems unlikely to be coming from Siberia.

Thank you for putting this more clearly than I could.

Europe's got to move to more heat pumps and more industrial use of electricity to be greener. Then the question becomes: where is the best source of that electricity?

Maybe some of it can be very efficient natural gas plants-- especially if power-to-gas provides viable to eat up solar surpluses during the day. But nuclear is a good thing to have in the mix, too.

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#44

Post by dathinab »

alkonaut wrote: post #34
dathinab wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a good choice, in many cases using the same space for (human) food or just a forest is a more environments friendly, more subtainable and due to the use of fertilizer sometimes more climate friendly choice (at least in the EU/Germany) It also avoid all kinds of social/human problems. And even if it's not not climate friendly it's not much worse either.

The same space as what? Biogas is produced by rotting in wastewater plants (or that’s what I thought until someone mentioned the idea of growing stuff to make biogas but that sounded like a bad idea as you point out).

There is only that much rotting close by bio wast, so I don't think natural bio gas makes a dent on the larger picture (but is nice for some use-cases without question).

So when Germany started subvention Bio Gas it didn't took long until people started growing stuff with the intention of having "a lot of was for bio gas" (as far as I remember).

Similar, probably worse, thinks happened in some "3rd world" countries as far as I remember.

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#45

Post by floatboth »

retinaros wrote: post #23

in france gov passed a law that will give a bad grade to gas heated houses (if the grade is bad you cant rent your house) and a good one to electricity. oh and because of europe we import electricity from germany that is burning coal for it. we are really in the middle of a green idiocracy

Isn't the vast majority of electricity in France coming from French nuclear power plants?

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#46

Post by dathinab »

horsawlarway wrote: post #30
dathinab wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still kinda rediculus IMHO. Nuclear power it's climate but but environment/human friendly. So I can understand that. But natural gas isn't green however I look at it. It's clearly better then cush l coal, but but green. So it shouldn't be allowed to be labeled as such. Instead we should add a label for better but but really good tech, like yellow or so.

The labeling matters because it influences funds allocation. "green" in this sense just means it's eligible to receive funding/tax status that is otherwise not available. It's not a judgement on whether the technology is carbon neutral.

But that is what people will treat it as.

If it's just about such aspect you could give it some arbitrary EU regulation number and say it's compatible with that.

By basing it around the term "green" it's very much focused around marketing and what people will perceive as "carbon neutral".

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#47

Post by alkonaut »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #42
alkonaut wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what your point is: once no fossil fuel is used to heat Europe (which has to be very soon), something else will. The replacement could be anything but it seems unlikely to be coming from Siberia. Europe need a to take some quick and uncomfortable decisions here. It can’t be acceptable to have homes heated with fossil fuel anywhere in the rich part of the EU at least, even just a decade from now. This was jus…

Theway government grants work in UK is, the richer you are, the more you get from the government. They freauently are offset against your taxable income, so they are most effective if you are in highest tax bracket. Conversely, poorest people rent the shittiest and least efficient homes, but they don't have the choice to replace the heating system - that's the landlorsa decision. But he doen't pay the utilities, the…

The grants I have see now e.g Finland seem to be a straight grant of €4000 which gets you almost all the way to a decent heat pump.

These are cash grants not deductions (as they should be! They are covering a one-time cost!)

This is for single family detached homes (which are almost invariably owned)

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#48

Post by Gwypaas »

user_7832 wrote: post #41
yholio wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> plan to switch to low-carbon gases by the end of 2035. It's a handout to the dying hydrogen industry of which EU was a huge supporter of. The electric revolution killed any chances of hydrogen powered cars, and the new hype in the industry is using excess renewable electricity to store in hydrogen batteries, which would then supply process heat or residential heating with zero emissions. This is all a bunch of crap…

I'm curious on why you're pessimistic on hydrogen. I agree that cars are likely not the best use of fuel cells (heavy vehicles are able to utilize H2's strengths much more), but in a future based on renewables hydrogen allows you to store energy in a very dense way. Lithium batteries are acceptably heavy/expensive at small scales, but how do you think will supply vary to meet demand in the medium-long term without a…

Call it a solution in search of a problem. The best fuel cells today reach about 50% round trip efficiency. That's even a high estimate. That by physics defines the price difference between where you buy low and sell high. Without even counting the hydrogen storage, fuel cell itself and everything needed to make it function.

That number also defines the arbitrage marginal any other solution has against hydrogen. Be it batteries, over built renewables or geographically coupled networks.

Hydrogen as a feedstock for industry?? Definitely.

Hydrogen for airplanes? Likely synthetic hydrocarbons but we will see, the hydrogen has to come from somewhere. Same with long distance ocean transport.

Emergency reserve of power for a nation state? Just use fossil fuels.

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#49

Post by retinaros »

scrollaway wrote: post #39
retinaros wrote: post #23

in france gov passed a law that will give a bad grade to gas heated houses (if the grade is bad you cant rent your house) and a good one to electricity. oh and because of europe we import electricity from germany that is burning coal for it. we are really in the middle of a green idiocracy

This is misinformation in both paragraphs. The “bad grade” takes a lot into account and between all the exceptions it is primarily aimed at new constructions. As for your second paragraph, I have no idea what you’re smoking. We’re Europe’s largest exporter of electricity, thanks to our nuclear power.

before shouting misinformation you might want to inform yourself first paragraph I never said having gas was exclusive of getting a bad grade. however gas is now considered a bad energy and will reduce your grade. and it is one of the key factors. when your investment is six digits or more and a stupid law destroy it you know it. and no it is not for new constructions. in paris a huge chunk of the old apartments have a bad grade. people won t be allowed to put their apt for rent on the market, they will sell, which will reduce the nbr of apartment available and increase rent prices.

second paragraph: you should look at how electricity works. it is a european market not a french one. per wikipedia « In 2020, France retains its position as the leading exporter in Europe with a total exporter of 43.2 TWh, down by around 13 TWh compared to 2019; commercial export volumes decreased by 7% to 77.8 TWh, while import volumes increased by 22% to 34.6 TWh. The balance of trade remained an exporter every month except September, which is usually a very exporting month; this anomaly is explained in particular by the sharp drop in the availability of nuclear power plants« and it was same for 2021

Re: EU drafts plan to label gas and nuclear investments as green

#50

Post by nitrogen »

neximo64 wrote: post #33

There was an insecticide ban (Neonicotinoids) not so long ago, i.e a "complete ban", but then I saw that it didn't apply to greenhouses - where it had more than 80% of its use prior to the ban. After that alot of the directives that come from the commission, especially involving climate change, if you look at it properly is just greenwashing. France is maybe about the only country that is genuine about it. [1] https:…

Given that bees are the biggest likely victims of neonicotinoids, isn't restricting their use to greenhouses exactly what we want? Let bugs outside be, keep bugs inside under control?
Post reply on HN