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Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

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Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#151

Why is it even possible to enter a desired altitude of 0 feet into an automatic pilot? As a layman, it’s hard for me to imagine why anyone flying a 777 would want to maintain an altitude of zero at full speed for more than a few seconds (if that).

Interestingly I found that a few airports are below sea level [1], so flying at or below sea level is possible.

[1] https://expertworldtravel.com/lowest-airports-world/

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#152
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes way beyond checklist stuff. Imagine having an intermediate system in your Tesla, one between fully manual and the autopilot. This system uses the navigation capabilities of the autopilot to draw in the big screen some squares that guide you to your destination without the need to look outside. Something you may find in a videogame. This system is helpfull and easy to use, and allows you to pay attention to mo…

This rings true. I live in Doha and a very good family friend is an instructor in the local flag carrier's training program. He was recently bemoaning the following situation: 1. There was a go-around on some flight or other (for good reason!) 2. Management interpreted this as a failure, and announced that every go-around will now have a full post-mortem with involved pilots requiring more sim time. 3. Pilots now thi…

On that note: I have had a triple go-around and even though everybody was super happy about making their connections on time I personally thought that that was an extremely unsafe landing with the port side wing coming uncomfortably close to the tarmac. Severe windshear, ours was the last flight to land before the airport was closed. The pilot stood at the door to say goodbye to the passengers and was visibly upset.

Any kind of pressure on pilots to make connections or to reduce the number of go arounds or even alternates should be pushed back against hard. It can only lead to more accidents.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#153

So does someone monitor each and every flight for anomalies like this? Or is there some software that takes in the data from each flight and spots differences like this, there could be several more instances in the global data if this is a manual process. Could be an interesting little project, although I guess the data isn't publicly available.

[deleted]

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#154
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, assuming that the previous crew left you a 'perfect and ready to fly plane' is one hell of an assumption to make. With tiny little pieces to collect if it ends up being wrong. This is very bizarre. I once had a morning flight out of Denver (not too long ago, August 2008?) and talking to people there apparently the plane had an electronics malfunction of some sort. They said they would fly us out as soon as the…

That's proper procedure. When in doubt: fail safe. These guys even flew the plane back instead of being replaced by another crew, and that's with a plane that has just been used way in excess of its design parameters on more than one measure.

I've heard pilots put this as "it's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground".

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#156
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes way beyond checklist stuff. Imagine having an intermediate system in your Tesla, one between fully manual and the autopilot. This system uses the navigation capabilities of the autopilot to draw in the big screen some squares that guide you to your destination without the need to look outside. Something you may find in a videogame. This system is helpfull and easy to use, and allows you to pay attention to mo…

I would like to know what the Ryanair pilots are ordered to do by their higher ups. Been on a few of them in Europe and they all hit the runway pretty hard coming back down.

Try KLM. Drop it down from 3' up and ensure firm contact with the runway, rather than those endless landings where nobody knows if you've touched down or not. Better to avoid the ambiguity. You have to break ground effect somehow and the decisive way is the best, then at least you know you're no longer flying but rolling.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#157
> While it would be standard to return to the airport to assess damage when something like this happens, the pilots made the decision to continue to Washington

That reminds me of Air India Express Flight 611, where the plane hit the antenna at the end of the runway and the brick perimeter wall(!) Even though ATC notified the pilots that they hit something, the pilots decided to keep flying for 4 hours. On landing, the plane was found to have a bunch of damage including a hole in the underside.

(The underlying problem was the captain's seat backrest collapsed during takeoff and he accidentally yanked back on the throttle, reducing their takeoff speed.)

The point is that pilots can hit something during takeoff, do severe damage to the plane, and totally not realize it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Express_Flight_611

Interesting video on the incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kA6m1U0QUA

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unbelievable that the pilot's didn't realize they were doing 215 knots while still ON THE GROUND and only decided to pull back on the yoke once they were nearing the end of the runway. They should have at least seen the end of the runway coming up and wondered why they weren't airborne yet. The ends are colored in amber and red as it gets closer to the end, it should be pretty obvious something is wrong. Pull ba…

I thought all takeoffs were manual. Is auto-takeoff out of testing already?

The takeoff isn't directly automated, but there's a system called the "flight director" [1] that provides indicators on the pilot flying's display that correspond with a configured trajectory. In this case, it sounds like the flight director was badly misconfigured and the pilots not only omitted to reconfigure it, but followed the erroneous indication far past any point at which it was remotely reasonable (or remotely safe!) to do so.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_director_(aeronautics...

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#159

> suggesting [...]the previous flight crew had left the altitude setting at [...] 00000 feet Does the system really display as "00000"? That seems like an odd design choice, I'd have thought just a single "0" would be far more legible in this scenario, especially if it's on a 7-segment display. I don't think passengers would have noticed this as anything other than a regular takeoff, because ATC does request slow cli…

Speaking of bad UX choices, the FAA is constantly dropping one or two or more digits from numbers like altitudes, runway lengths, heading, timestamps, etc. For example, "the runway from 180° is 5200 feet long" becomes "RWY18 52" which I suppose you get used to, but it's just begging for mixups.

It still matters since most communication is over the radio, and in many areas it’s highly congested.

When there are 50 pilots on the radio and things are moving fast there isn’t time to slow down and spell things out, and doing so can actually be more dangerous when extraneous stuff ends up on the radio and is misinterpreted.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

777 has a takeoff configuration warning system, so unlikely. Far more likely is the pilots simply failed to command sufficient pitch up (higher pitch gives a lower airspeed and higher climb rate [at least in the airspeed and pitch regime we’re talking about here]). Takeoff configuration warning can be silenced, but is an abort before the 80 knot callout.

Disclaimer: My experience in piloting is just a couple of hours flying planes in kerbal space program. Wouldn't that much speed cause the plane to ascent naturally, even with zero pitch, just by the body lift? (Although, it is quite possible that real life planes have negative body lift, I have no idea)

The airplane will seek its trimmed speed (which is adjustable via a very powerful adjustable pitch horizontal stabilizer).

If there’s more power than needed for the trimmed speed, the airplane will climb. If there’s less, it will descend.

262 knots is well within the trim range, so it’s impossible to say without knowing the trim setting, but if the airplane was programmed to hold an altitude at 262 knots, it could (by driving the stab angle of incidence higher or lower, as needed)

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