Live data from Hacker News

Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

onemileatatime.com

81–90 of 580 posts

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#81

Pilot (piston engine, with only around 20 hours of light jet dual). As a pax on this flight, I might not have noticed much unless I was looking out the window. This seems like a fault of the crew (obviously), but probably more on the PNF (pilot not flying) than the PF (pilot flying). Article says 4 pilots were on board, but fails to mention that 2 of them (relief pilots) were likely not in the cockpit on the departur…

> I catch heat every time I mention that air crew training and certification standards are not uniform across the globe and that I am reluctant to fly on many foreign-flag carriers. (However, Emirates and most EU-flag carriers are ones that I would not hesitate to fly on.)

Has anyone made some sort of a rough list of which carriers one can feel safe on?

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#82

The memo from Emirates about not setting altitude in system to airport altitude is so weird. I really hope that's not the actual message Emirates is putting out there. It doesn't matter was in system. You run your checklists and configure for your own flight / your own departure etc. Memo should be to training / recruitment - where did you find these pilots to fly a 777? So they obviously didn't pre-flight the flight…

It goes way beyond checklist stuff.

Imagine having an intermediate system in your Tesla, one between fully manual and the autopilot. This system uses the navigation capabilities of the autopilot to draw in the big screen some squares that guide you to your destination without the need to look outside. Something you may find in a videogame. This system is helpfull and easy to use, and allows you to pay attention to more important matters.

Well, now imagine getting so used to this system that you forget how to drive without the squares telling you what to do every single moment. So used that if the squares guide you to drive straight to a wall at 100mph you do it without hesitation.

This is what supposedly happened in this case. The flight director is there to help you, but you are supposed to know how to fly without it.

When you rotate an airliner the initial pitch is around 15 degrees nose up, that way your rate of climb and the optimal climb speed is maintained.

They kept the nose almost horizontal, against any natural instinct for a pilot. They almost overrun the runway without rotating, and they barely rotated just enough to be able to keep the flight director centered in their screen.

It seems that the speed went beyond the structural limit of the tyres (around 200 kts) and if they didn’t retract the flaps, beyond their structural limit too. And then they proceeded to fly almost scratching the obstacles in their path.

Why does something like this happpens? Because in an airline like Emirates actual piloting skills are actively punished!. You are not allowed to fly the plane manually, nor disconect automatic systems if they are available.

They expect robot like precission applying procedures, modern airliners log dozens of instruments and have automatic reports when procedure limitation are exceeding (is a big brother like work environment). This may seem a good philosophy, but it actually creates an situation where pilots loose necessary skills, and when computers or procedures fail, as they often do in airplanes, pilots are not able to react properly anymore.

I’m sure Emirates will punish the pilots and will set new procedures over the current ones, to try to avoid this kind of situations in the future. They will solve nothing, they will only make it worse. Is a culture of fear and punishment. This also happens in other middle east airlines like Qatar. Airlines in Asia are making this mistake too.

In contrast airlines in the US and Europe (except Ryanair and some other British carriers) give pilots much more freedom regarding manual flight, which helps them to keep their skills honed.

Hope this gives a different perspective on the problem. The wrong altitude selection is the minor of the problems in this case IMHO.

I am an Airline captain with 22 years of experience (737, MD88, A320, A330 and A340) and more than 14k flight hours.

Edit, some typos and making a couple of sentences more clear.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#83

The memo from Emirates about not setting altitude in system to airport altitude is so weird. I really hope that's not the actual message Emirates is putting out there. It doesn't matter was in system. You run your checklists and configure for your own flight / your own departure etc. Memo should be to training / recruitment - where did you find these pilots to fly a 777? So they obviously didn't pre-flight the flight…

Seriously. Did these pilots think they were playing Microsoft Flight Simulator or something?!

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#84
post #31

Read what is the current top comment in the article linked above, from a U.S. captain also flying 777's, for the list of checks the crew apparently missed. Biggest flag is flying pilot apparently selecting autopilot on immediately after takeoff. Emirates note to their crews,is even more bizarre. Like an hospital reminding Anesthesiologists to check if patients are fully knocked out before operations. Incident still u…

More like a hospital telling anesthesiologists not to disconnect their lines because the next anesthesiologist might be an incompetent.

Exactly.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#86

The memo from Emirates about not setting altitude in system to airport altitude is so weird. I really hope that's not the actual message Emirates is putting out there. It doesn't matter was in system. You run your checklists and configure for your own flight / your own departure etc. Memo should be to training / recruitment - where did you find these pilots to fly a 777? So they obviously didn't pre-flight the flight…

> I really hope that's not the actual message Emirates is putting out there.

Why imagine there is hope of that? Is there some question as to the credibility of the reporting here? If this memo claim were fake I imagine Emirates would deny the report and initiate some lawsuits. The story linked here is based on the reporting[1] of one Gilbert Ott of godsavethepoints.com over five days ago which includes a image of the 'memo' Emirates issued, so someone has actually put their name on this story, including the report about the memo.

Blatant dysfunction should not be discounted through false hopes. This airline is clearly operated by incompetents, both in the cockpit and among its management. Someone will doubtless feel compelled to cite some safety record or another; this carries no weight if you cannot eliminate the contribution of aircraft designers and the automation they've provided. And you can't.

[1] https://www.godsavethepoints.com/emirates-flight-231-takeoff...

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#87

I'm surprised commercial planes don't do full software reset before each flight, and especially before a new crew takes over. Checklists only get you so much.

The checklists bring the aircraft back to a known state.

One 777 pilot commented to say that this issue should have been caught by at least two checklists, implying that neither checklists had been followed.

Tangentially: if my 2006 Mercedes is reset (battery disconnected) it needs to idle for 20 minutes to re-learn the idle pattern. The vehicle then needs to be driven around for a bit to re-learn driving patterns. I wonder if there are similar settings on a 777 that would need to be preserved between 'resets'.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

777 has a takeoff configuration warning system, so unlikely. Far more likely is the pilots simply failed to command sufficient pitch up (higher pitch gives a lower airspeed and higher climb rate [at least in the airspeed and pitch regime we’re talking about here]). Takeoff configuration warning can be silenced, but is an abort before the 80 knot callout.

Disclaimer: My experience in piloting is just a couple of hours flying planes in kerbal space program. Wouldn't that much speed cause the plane to ascent naturally, even with zero pitch, just by the body lift? (Although, it is quite possible that real life planes have negative body lift, I have no idea)

Fellow kerbal space program attendee here:

I believe that while smaller planes will naturally pitch up as speed increases, jumbo jets are much more lumpant even with the correct flaps. That's the terrifying thing in my understanding: the plane basically had no manual pitch due to incorrect config values, and were barely gliding off the ground from minimal natural lift. Meanwhile the two potatoes at the helm were fiddling with the config values instead of pulling on the yoke.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

777 has a takeoff configuration warning system, so unlikely. Far more likely is the pilots simply failed to command sufficient pitch up (higher pitch gives a lower airspeed and higher climb rate [at least in the airspeed and pitch regime we’re talking about here]). Takeoff configuration warning can be silenced, but is an abort before the 80 knot callout.

Disclaimer: My experience in piloting is just a couple of hours flying planes in kerbal space program. Wouldn't that much speed cause the plane to ascent naturally, even with zero pitch, just by the body lift? (Although, it is quite possible that real life planes have negative body lift, I have no idea)

[deleted]

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#90
post #53

75 feets is 22.8 meters. 234 knots is 433km/h.

Which is irrelevant, given this is about aviation where feet and knots are standardized in all but a few former Soviet block countries.

Still, helpful for the large majority of people who are not pilots.
Post reply on HN