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Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in

economist.com

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Re: Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in

#11

Post by stanrivers »

deltaonefour wrote: post #7
spoonjim wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is sui generis - if you don't really want to become "of Japan" I can't see a good reason to go there for more than a short sabbatical.

I mean eventually I want to learn the language right? The point is there will be a period of time where I don't know the language and hang out with my fellow ex-pats. Additionally I will never ever really actually master the language to the point where I'm indistinguishable from a native. I'm just wondering is Japan bearable under these conditions?

Not to be depressing, but you could speak fluent Japanese and you will always be "my foreign friend" or "our foreign coworker" or "the white guy with really good Japanese" to, by and large, even your closest friends.

On average, the country and its people are incredibly inviting and kind to guests and appreciative of foreigners that learn Japanese. However, you will always be viewed, by the vast majority, as being a guest - even after many many years and fluent Japanese.

And some people are fine with that, and some people can't stand that.

Re: Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in

#12

Post by bedobi »

deltaonefour wrote: post #4

I thought about getting a job there as a dev. However certain things like culture, low pay, the language, and making new friends has held me back. I really loved the city when I visited a couple years back. Does anyone live in Japan as a dev and not really know how to speak japanese? How has the experience been?

As others have pointed out, you probably don't want to be working for businesses that are run in the Japanese way, but there are plenty of both expat and native run businesses that aren't. The pay will be low but Tokyo is incredibly cheap so it's not really a problem locally. (but it is a problem in the sense that whatever you save won't be worth much elsewhere if you move back to the states or whatever later years later)

It goes without saying your experience will be incomparably better the sooner you learn Japanese, and it's nowhere near as hard as popularly portrayed.

Give it a shot, you only live once.

Re: Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in

#13

Post by tromp »

kstenerud wrote: post #6
deltaonefour wrote: post #4

I thought about getting a job there as a dev. However certain things like culture, low pay, the language, and making new friends has held me back. I really loved the city when I visited a couple years back. Does anyone live in Japan as a dev and not really know how to speak japanese? How has the experience been?

I didn't speak Japanese when I first moved there. In larger cities (especially Tokyo), there are plenty of people who speak English, so it's generally not a huge problem (although you'll find things easier if you do speak the language). The biggest issues are crowding and racism. Don't expect to get into any role of importance, and don't freak out when you hear "gaijin dame" (no foreigners allowed) in some places, or…

> "gaijin dame" (no foreigners allowed)

I recognize the word "dame" from playing the game of Go, where it means [1] a neutral point of no value. Curiously, that page says "It also has the everyday Japanese meanings of bad, don't do it."

So foreigners are bad, don't do them :-)

[1] https://senseis.xmp.net/?Dame

Re: Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in

#14

Post by stanrivers »

kstenerud wrote: post #6
deltaonefour wrote: post #4

I thought about getting a job there as a dev. However certain things like culture, low pay, the language, and making new friends has held me back. I really loved the city when I visited a couple years back. Does anyone live in Japan as a dev and not really know how to speak japanese? How has the experience been?

I didn't speak Japanese when I first moved there. In larger cities (especially Tokyo), there are plenty of people who speak English, so it's generally not a huge problem (although you'll find things easier if you do speak the language). The biggest issues are crowding and racism. Don't expect to get into any role of importance, and don't freak out when you hear "gaijin dame" (no foreigners allowed) in some places, or…

I laughed at your comment about "few (if any) friends of the same gender"

I have noticed the same problem. Interesting to hear someone else say that, too. I always thought it was a "native male" thing... women could make native women friends that were only friends. Any native men "friends" were roughly always trying to be slightly more than friends. Men could make native women friends and truly only be friends. Men didn't make friends with many native men, at least beyond superficial relationships...

Re: Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in

#15

Post by tjpnz »

What I've come to appreciate the most is how easy it is to get around by foot. Everywhere I lived previously seemed to have been built with pedestrians as an afterthought. But in Tokyo you can easily tune out with little chance of coming into contact with traffic. Public transport is also great provided you're ok with crowds, although not as big an issue for me now everything's remote.

Re: Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in

#16

Post by makotobestgirl »

bedobi wrote: post #8

Having lived in Tokyo for years, the elephant in the room is "cars". The whole city is full of pleasant mixed use neighborhoods that are more or less car-free, and centered around public transport hubs that have everything you need around them. People, including unaccompanied children, can and do safely walk and ride bikes everywhere at all hours of the day, including when grocery shopping etc. The world can learn a…

This is honestly the thing that bothers me most about cities the US. Having grown up in Europe, I find many (I'm sure there are exceptions) US cities to be plain ugly and unlivable. The reason is obvious to me. It's that they are designed around cars. It makes such a huge difference.

Re: Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in

#17

Post by bedobi »

makotobestgirl wrote: post #16
bedobi wrote: post #8

Having lived in Tokyo for years, the elephant in the room is "cars". The whole city is full of pleasant mixed use neighborhoods that are more or less car-free, and centered around public transport hubs that have everything you need around them. People, including unaccompanied children, can and do safely walk and ride bikes everywhere at all hours of the day, including when grocery shopping etc. The world can learn a…

This is honestly the thing that bothers me most about cities the US. Having grown up in Europe, I find many (I'm sure there are exceptions) US cities to be plain ugly and unlivable. The reason is obvious to me. It's that they are designed around cars. It makes such a huge difference.

I grew up in Stockholm and it too sadly is very, very car centric compared to Tokyo. Amsterdam, Barcelona, Copenhagen, Paris and others are much better... I wish all cities everywhere was more like them! (and Tokyo)

Re: Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in

#18

Post by tjpnz »

deltaonefour wrote: post #4

I thought about getting a job there as a dev. However certain things like culture, low pay, the language, and making new friends has held me back. I really loved the city when I visited a couple years back. Does anyone live in Japan as a dev and not really know how to speak japanese? How has the experience been?

Pay isn't that bad provided your expectations are reasonable. For reference I'm making more here than I could expect to make in NZ/AU/UK but nothing close to what's on offer in SV.

Re: Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in

#19

Post by VRay »

deltaonefour wrote: post #9
kstenerud wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't speak Japanese when I first moved there. In larger cities (especially Tokyo), there are plenty of people who speak English, so it's generally not a huge problem (although you'll find things easier if you do speak the language). The biggest issues are crowding and racism. Don't expect to get into any role of importance, and don't freak out when you hear "gaijin dame" (no foreigners allowed) in some places, or…

Yeah I don't mind being an outsider too much. Thanks, this is a good answer.

A lot of the foreigners living in Tokyo misinterpret tiny bits of nothing as hostility and racism

I'm a big guy, sometimes people make space for me on the train or whatever. It isn't racism. I'm a scary and weird looking guy too by local standards, it isn't racism when people gawk a little sometimes. People talk to me like a kid after I completely botch some basic phrase

The only racist thing that ever happened to me in years living there was this: I went to a bar with my white friend, and they said "No American" and made an x sign at us. I asked in Japanese "sorry, what was that you said?" and suddenly they welcomed us in.. I guess they just didn't want rowdy dudes who can't speak the language. Definitely not acceptable behavior from them, but not too bad IMO. I get way worse treatment in the USA for being Hispanic than I ever do for being a foreigner in Japan

The expat community in Tokyo is kinda obnoxious. There are a lot of lazy, burned out guys who complain about everything

Re: Tokyo: A big city that is also pleasant to live in

#20

Post by deltaonefour »

stanrivers wrote: post #11
deltaonefour wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean eventually I want to learn the language right? The point is there will be a period of time where I don't know the language and hang out with my fellow ex-pats. Additionally I will never ever really actually master the language to the point where I'm indistinguishable from a native. I'm just wondering is Japan bearable under these conditions?

Not to be depressing, but you could speak fluent Japanese and you will always be "my foreign friend" or "our foreign coworker" or "the white guy with really good Japanese" to, by and large, even your closest friends. On average, the country and its people are incredibly inviting and kind to guests and appreciative of foreigners that learn Japanese. However, you will always be viewed, by the vast majority, as being a…

Yeah I heard of this, I think I'd be ok with it as this kind of thing would likely happen in China or other asian countries as well. Thanks for the tips.

I think this is largely the case for asian countries where the people are more homogeneous. You get much less of this in countries or cities that are much more ethnically and culturally diverse.

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