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Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

thehindu.com

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Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#71
post #22

Nuclear power is an amazing energy source. It doesn’t look like we’ll ever get beyond the politics that would make small scale It’s really a shame.

It is amazing. But two major incidents within 30 years time range are not so amazing. When we continue in that rate we will have a serious problem. And with aging reactors and instability everywhere it does not look good.

Mortality from existing fossil fuels is significantly worse (just from production and ignoring all the pollutants in the air and even ignoring that coal plants regularly emit more radiation into the air than have ever died from nuclear power generation). In fact, mortality from nuclear power generation is closer to solar and wind.

Yes the incidents are scary and news grabbing but that’s it. The actual data is that it’s safe (look at mortality as a function of megawatt hours produced). Not to mention that in the 60-80 years since those plants were designed (Fukushima and Chernobyl are basically the same design if I recall correctly), we’ve gotten much better at designing plants that withstand natural disasters. This is also ignoring the fact that we can do a better job of locating power plants further away from disaster-prone areas due to advances in power distributions systems (eg HVDC).

The problem with nuclear is that there’s a lot of fear still lingering around it from Cold War era propaganda. Any issues just play into and reinforce those fears. The real problem is that education is the only effective tool we know of to fight fear but it’s slow and not up to the challenge that nuclear fission faces. That’s because on top of the fears are actual opponents who will fight any real evidence-based education efforts by playing up the FUD (very old tactic). Fossil fuel companies don’t want it because nuclear presents an existential threat to their existence. US national security interests are worried about proliferation if we’re giving them the benefit of the doubt. It also presents a serious threat to US hegemony if countries are able to establish their own energy independence.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#72
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is amazing. But two major incidents within 30 years time range are not so amazing. When we continue in that rate we will have a serious problem. And with aging reactors and instability everywhere it does not look good.

One incident caused by a natural disaster that would never happen in a European country like Germany, the other caused by mismanagement and frankly jaw droppingly pigheaded incompetence which would also never happen in a country like Germany. Edit: in response to the large number of people bringing up BER and other infrastructure failures in Germany: yes, BER and others may have been bad, but a completely different k…

Accidents will always happen, even in Germany [1]. And don’t forget their WW2 bomb detection isn’t perfect [2]. Nor are they free from corruptive practices [3].

1. https://www.itv.com/news/2016-02-09/a-history-of-german-trai...

2. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59487910

3. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34324772

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#73
post #22

Nuclear power is an amazing energy source. It doesn’t look like we’ll ever get beyond the politics that would make small scale It’s really a shame.

It is amazing. But two major incidents within 30 years time range are not so amazing. When we continue in that rate we will have a serious problem. And with aging reactors and instability everywhere it does not look good.

This is so wrong. If you look at the death rate from those incidents and compare them to the death rates of literally any other source of energy (including other renewables), they are much much lower.

Nuclear is proven to be our most safe, clean and renewable source of energy.

Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/494425/death-rate-worldw...

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who, to be clear, pays for almost all of the defense in NATO. So yes, to appease the US. Also, it's terrible policy to depend on Putin, which seems obvious to everyone but Germany

How come trade is seen as a peace maker for inside the EU, but not seen as a peace maker when done with Russia? AFAIK Russia has been a trustworthy gas supplier and it would be economical suicide if they proved not to be trustworthy.

Germany depends on Russian energy as much as Russian depends on Germany's Euros, true.

But during a crisis, which one do you think will collapse first?

1) Germans freezing to death without energy to heat themselves and move their economy

2) Russians drinking vodka

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should call this the "enable Putin" and "destroy the climate" plan. Honestly, I think we should declare a 50% tax on the gas going through the new Putin Nordstream 2 pipeline and direct the proceeds to NATO. Prices in externalities of gas usage and gets the EU closer to their NATO commitment.

And closer to war. Great solution! It's going to do so much good for the climate!

It is, once all the apes on the space rock are gone... Sorry, I let the cynicist out.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#76
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is amazing. But two major incidents within 30 years time range are not so amazing. When we continue in that rate we will have a serious problem. And with aging reactors and instability everywhere it does not look good.

One incident caused by a natural disaster that would never happen in a European country like Germany, the other caused by mismanagement and frankly jaw droppingly pigheaded incompetence which would also never happen in a country like Germany. Edit: in response to the large number of people bringing up BER and other infrastructure failures in Germany: yes, BER and others may have been bad, but a completely different k…

Floodings are going to be much more frequent than they were in the past. If you want to take a look at where those nuclear reactors are located and explain how they were to be operated safely and cost effectively in the next decade or two I think the Germans would be all ear.

Germany has this right: do it now, and deal with it, rather than to continue to kick the can down the road for later generations to solve the problems, a kind of temporeal externalization.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#77
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is amazing. But two major incidents within 30 years time range are not so amazing. When we continue in that rate we will have a serious problem. And with aging reactors and instability everywhere it does not look good.

One incident caused by a natural disaster that would never happen in a European country like Germany, the other caused by mismanagement and frankly jaw droppingly pigheaded incompetence which would also never happen in a country like Germany. Edit: in response to the large number of people bringing up BER and other infrastructure failures in Germany: yes, BER and others may have been bad, but a completely different k…

Jaw droppingly pigheaded incompetence is unfortunately quite common once economic pressure makes the correct way of running things untenable.

Everybody starts cutting small corners everywhere, assuming it doesn't matter much as all the other people are still doing their job. One day, a corner too many gets cut, and the slack in the system is too small to catch what should be a minor problem.

Don't trust the public facade and official reports, they have been filtered by PR departments and by people not wishing to report bad news to their managers and peers

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#78

Nuclear power is an amazing energy source. It doesn’t look like we’ll ever get beyond the politics that would make small scale It’s really a shame.

It's insanely costly.

it's insanely costly _to build bring a plant online initially_

once you're up and running, it's cheap as dirt, just takes decades to pay off the initial investment

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#79
post #5

Sad to see Germany continue to shut down Nuclear while having to greatly expand coal usage because their wind farms significantly under produce due to unexpected weather patterns. (As much as +40% coal generation in the past two years, and -20% wind) https://www.ans.org/news/article-3274/germany-coal-tops-wind... https://energypost.eu/germany-2021-coal-generation-is-rising... And they're replacing it with... gas! Gre…

They're not replacing nuclear with gas. Nuclear has a steady output, gas will be variable output. It will run when deemed necessary.

What they going to replace that baseload with? Or do they not need that baseload any more (seems unlikely).

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#80

Nuclear power is an amazing energy source. It doesn’t look like we’ll ever get beyond the politics that would make small scale It’s really a shame.

It's not politics. It is a practical reality that it is dangerous. As dangerous as coal plants. But for some reason HN likes to turn a blind eye to un-disposable toxic waste and the potential for citywide devastation (Chernobyl).

You are delusional.

Coal plants kill millions of people worldwide every year.

How many people died from Chernobyl? About 50, despite over 100,000 people working at the site on cleanup. The adjacent reactors continued to run and provide power for about a decade after the incident.

How many people died of radiation poisoning at Fukushima? Zero.

Zero!

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