Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed] • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#621

Post by hatware » Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 11:02 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #612

hatware wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> garden-variety internet comments and cheap personal attacks That is how you took the comment. I took the comment to be a refreshing dose of reality. Perspective matters a lot.

Ok, but anyone could say that about any comment, so from a moderation perspective that is either an empty point or means that we shouldn't moderate anything at all. For practical purposes, someone has to make judgment calls about these things. The way we do that is that we have a set of guidelines ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ), and moderators who make calls about which accounts are breaking the…

> we shouldn't moderate anything at all

Moderation is absolutely necessary. What bothers me is that we are 4 or 5 comments deep, and you still seem to not understand why I spoke up in the first place.

The comment you initially replied to did not come off as a personal attack at all to me, in fact, there was nothing personal about it. They took data that was shared with them and used their experience to spit out their own thoughts on the matter.

So, I am calling you out for being a bit too zealous with the power you wield. What you do with my perspective being shared with you is up to you, but you're doing a lot to not just ask yourself "Was I being too harsh?" ... Here you have a human telling you that yes, that was too harsh.

Calling out the bitter flavor of a corporation's kool-aid is not a personal attack on anyone. Period.

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#622

Post by dang » Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 11:24 PM UTC

hatware wrote: post #621

dang wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but anyone could say that about any comment, so from a moderation perspective that is either an empty point or means that we shouldn't moderate anything at all. For practical purposes, someone has to make judgment calls about these things. The way we do that is that we have a set of guidelines ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ), and moderators who make calls about which accounts are breaking the…

> we shouldn't moderate anything at all Moderation is absolutely necessary. What bothers me is that we are 4 or 5 comments deep, and you still seem to not understand why I spoke up in the first place. The comment you initially replied to did not come off as a personal attack at all to me, in fact, there was nothing personal about it. They took data that was shared with them and used their experience to spit out their…

You (edit: I meant the original commenter) very much attacked the person ("you"). I'm sorry, but this was not a particularly borderline call. See https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... for past similar examples.

If you (edit: I meant the original commenter) had just said it about the corporation, it would still not have been a high-quality HN comment, but I wouldn't have posted a moderation reply.

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#623

Post by robertlagrant » Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 8:03 AM UTC

_zzaw wrote: post #578

robertlagrant wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An engineer who can write straightforwardly is worth 100 PR people in situations like this. They're not paid like that, but they are worth that.

Fully agreed. And yeah, when it comes to my expectations as far as how large companies respond to embarrassments, the bar is about as low as it gets. A tone-deaf non-apology that sounds like a robot wrote it is what I expect to hear, and I’m almost invariably right. And that offends me. The idea that someone thinks I’d be convinced by such a response—that I’d find it persuasive and acceptable—is fucking insulting. So…

Agreed. It's mostly I think because the press can only really do bikeshedding, and so the form of what people say is all they can comment on and amplify, and so we need professional spokespeople to keep up with the rules of what's okay to say, rather than more people to make better products.

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#624

Post by bakul » Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

hatware wrote: post #610

dang wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but garden-variety internet comments and cheap personal attacks don't rise to the noble level of moral obligation. The comment plainly broke the site rules. That's not allowed here. If people have noble duties to fulfill, they can do that without breaking the rules. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> garden-variety internet comments and cheap personal attacks That is how you took the comment. I took the comment to be a refreshing dose of reality. Perspective matters a lot.

> I took the comment to be a refreshing dose of reality.

This is how I meant it but I could have phrased it or presented it differently as this point got lost at least with the moderators and may be many more. Will try to be more careful in the future.

I appreciate your speaking up. And I also appreciate the moderators in trying to keep the discussion standards high. They have a tough job trying to decipher the intent of every commenter.

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#625

Post by hatware » Sat, Jan 01, 2022, 11:54 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #622

hatware wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we shouldn't moderate anything at all Moderation is absolutely necessary. What bothers me is that we are 4 or 5 comments deep, and you still seem to not understand why I spoke up in the first place. The comment you initially replied to did not come off as a personal attack at all to me, in fact, there was nothing personal about it. They took data that was shared with them and used their experience to spit out their…

You (edit: I meant the original commenter) very much attacked the person ("you"). I'm sorry, but this was not a particularly borderline call. See https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... for past similar examples. If you (edit: I meant the original commenter) had just said it about the corporation, it would still not have been a high-quality HN comment, but I wouldn't have posted a moderation r…

> You very much attacked the person

Sorry? I did not attack anyone. I am defending a comment by somebody else in which you presume they are personally attacking someone who has openly admitted they work for Microsoft.

You really are lost aren't you? Along with the irony of mentioning "high-quality" comments. Wow. What is the _level of quality_ when the commenter has lost track of the person with whom they are speaking...? In case you missed it, I'm talking about you.

I will re-iterate, because I'm patient. I am telling you that you were overzealous in moderating a harmless comment about Microsoft as a company. There is no personal attack in the comment, no matter how you choose to view it.

Feel free to understand the perspective of others before you blindly share more of yours. What a disgusting interpretation of "moderation." Censorship is a much better word to describe where you're headed.

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#626

Post by dang » Sun, Jan 02, 2022, 5:15 AM UTC

hatware wrote: post #625

dang wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You (edit: I meant the original commenter) very much attacked the person ("you"). I'm sorry, but this was not a particularly borderline call. See https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... for past similar examples. If you (edit: I meant the original commenter) had just said it about the corporation, it would still not have been a high-quality HN comment, but I wouldn't have posted a moderation r…

> You very much attacked the person Sorry? I did not attack anyone. I am defending a comment by somebody else in which you presume they are personally attacking someone who has openly admitted they work for Microsoft. You really are lost aren't you? Along with the irony of mentioning "high-quality" comments. Wow. What is the _level of quality_ when the commenter has lost track of the person with whom they are speakin…

You're right, of course: the comment I described as containing a personal attack was by bakul (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29684540), not by you. Sorry for mixing that up! I've added edits to the GP to clarify.

The core moderation point there is unchanged.