Live data from Hacker News

“Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

paulbutler.org

681–690 of 700 posts

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#681
post #250

Here's patio11's thread: https://twitter.com/patio11/status/1459682519360491523 I was shocked to see A16z recently investing $150M in Axie Infinity and doubling down on their justification of play-to-earn as a coherent concept, as if it's not fundamentally a pyramid scheme. It's lowered my expectation of what passes for thought leadership in our industry.

Ponzi schemes are great if you leave early enough.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noise insulation in the airplane exists because it tries to shield passengers from the aircraft noise, which is a consequence of modern airplane design. Following the same logic, shall we call it bullshit insulation? This line of thought assumes three bold ideas: 1. that existing model is bad 2. that alternative model for airline (or any other industry) exists 3. that alternative model won’t suffer from similar issue…

If his actual argument is "they do it to keep us busy" with no further elaboration, that's just wildly conspiratorial and a pretty stupid argument. How I'd look at it (as a postmodernist) is like this: after the owning class moved all the "real" (ie, related to manufacturing) work overseas to places where labour is cheap, first world jobs have been increasingly focused on problems within the abstraction itself - we'r…

I disagree with the definition of “real” here. If we fully automate the production, would that suddenly make all the work “abstract”? Or would developers working on automation be the only ones doing “real” work?

If yes, then modern jobs of US-based policy makers who write organizational scripts are also “real”, because they basically define exact same thing, only for people-based systems overseas instead of fully automated systems.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#683
post #250

Here's patio11's thread: https://twitter.com/patio11/status/1459682519360491523 I was shocked to see A16z recently investing $150M in Axie Infinity and doubling down on their justification of play-to-earn as a coherent concept, as if it's not fundamentally a pyramid scheme. It's lowered my expectation of what passes for thought leadership in our industry.

Thought leadership smeadership. A16z's goal is to make money, lots of it. Shouldn't confuse its purpose by giving it other goals.

Indeed, the classic line, "Don't make the mistake of anthropomorphizing Larry Ellison," seems apropos here.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If his actual argument is "they do it to keep us busy" with no further elaboration, that's just wildly conspiratorial and a pretty stupid argument. How I'd look at it (as a postmodernist) is like this: after the owning class moved all the "real" (ie, related to manufacturing) work overseas to places where labour is cheap, first world jobs have been increasingly focused on problems within the abstraction itself - we'r…

I disagree with the definition of “real” here. If we fully automate the production, would that suddenly make all the work “abstract”? Or would developers working on automation be the only ones doing “real” work? If yes, then modern jobs of US-based policy makers who write organizational scripts are also “real”, because they basically define exact same thing, only for people-based systems overseas instead of fully aut…

The reason I put "real" in scare quotes was to appeal to the colloquial meaning of "real job", which is basically to be close to the production of actual materials and goods.

If everything were automated then labour would no longer be necessary at all. If we were still working at that time it would not only be abstract, but completely pointless.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of your points. If something as real-life meaningful as the stopping of a predatory crime does not satisfy you as a legitimate usage example against people claiming there is essentially none, I'm at a loss and am unsure of what we're actually discussing. As you may imagine, it's impossible for me to provide the 1,000 page+ documentation trail of an in-progress federal investigation here in order to…

I'm sorry but as an observer to this thread: there is nothing even remotely compelling to your argument. 'stopping a predatory crime' - one instance? That you can't refer to? Not compelling. In fact, the sheer number of predatory scams being performed using crypto would surely outweigh the alleged single incident in which Bitcoin had a positive influence? Your inability to meet any other requests for evidence (busine…

I do not hold any meaningful amount of btc. I am not selling bitcoin, I am countering FUD. there is not a single example of my intent in this thread being promotion or marketing. I'm pointing out classical FUD techniques on a public technology forum, not making an argument. There is zero desire to compel you. Your proclamation of damnation is noted here for posterity.

I'm specifically refusing the demand that it's my responsibility to provide evidence of commercial btc usage in order to highlight FUD tactics. The alleged story I mention is likely to receive media exposure in Q3 2022, and it's largely but not completely up to the target.

In your opinion the anecdotal story of aiding in the stopping of a predatory crime is not compelling and does not demonstrate meaningful utility. If you think every human agrees with you that is not compelling, I believe that is an extraordinary statement on your part.

The common hostile attitude here on the subject is what's being captured and addressed, and my response to it is what I'm specifically capturing in my comment history for posterity. It has utility.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what people don't seem to understand about BitCoin. It is cashflow negative, Money has to keep coming in to keep the price up due to paying miners. It is totally fine if you think BTC is better than the USD or Gold for whatever reason. But Bitcoin is still cashflow negative. You have to keep pumping money into it to keep up its value. Where is that money going to come from? Is it coming from Tether? Is it com…

How is that different at all from fiat currencies? Every electronic transaction you make, like credit card or money transfers, has fees. Central banks have to keep pumping money into the economy so we can have the same nominal amount of cash in the system(albeit with lower value, because inflation). So, my question is, is fiat currency cashflow positive? How?

I use ACH and Venmo all the time for no fees. Do you mean the tiny electricity fee that they pay on my behalf of maybe $0.01? Sure seems like a great deal compared to the multiple dollars (sometimes over $50) charged by Bitcoin and friends

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the definition of “real” here. If we fully automate the production, would that suddenly make all the work “abstract”? Or would developers working on automation be the only ones doing “real” work? If yes, then modern jobs of US-based policy makers who write organizational scripts are also “real”, because they basically define exact same thing, only for people-based systems overseas instead of fully aut…

The reason I put "real" in scare quotes was to appeal to the colloquial meaning of "real job", which is basically to be close to the production of actual materials and goods. If everything were automated then labour would no longer be necessary at all. If we were still working at that time it would not only be abstract, but completely pointless.

“Everything is automated” world would still require maintenance, but all the maintenance jobs would be “bullshit” by Graeber’s definition, as they help to maintain some technological system. Which means any kind of technologically developed society will have these “bullshit” jobs, even anarchist one.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I put "real" in scare quotes was to appeal to the colloquial meaning of "real job", which is basically to be close to the production of actual materials and goods. If everything were automated then labour would no longer be necessary at all. If we were still working at that time it would not only be abstract, but completely pointless.

“Everything is automated” world would still require maintenance, but all the maintenance jobs would be “bullshit” by Graeber’s definition, as they help to maintain some technological system. Which means any kind of technologically developed society will have these “bullshit” jobs, even anarchist one.

OK so getting down into the nitty gritty, we have to distinguish between the types of work that are not directly productive - there's jobs that are indirectly productive, and thus contribute to the productive process (like machine maintainence), and there's jobs that do not. The latter are the "bullshit jobs" - they just exist to protect and maintain power structures, they're not contributing to production in any meaningful sense.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#690
post #657
post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is more complicated than you’re letting on. Democracies have complicated tax codes to incentivize certain behavior and also as a political tool. Legislators need to use tax incentives to ensure their base continues supporting them, and to win over new supporters. Before you say “that’s messed up! Legislators shouldn’t do that!” Think for a second how anyone would possibly win an election and retain their po…

> Legislators need to use tax incentives to ensure their base continues supporting them, and to win over new supporters. If it's legislators serving the interests of their constituents directly and thus get re-elected, that is one thing. However often legislators make these decisions to serve corporate lobbyists (such as Intuit's) and are working against the interests of their constituents so they can raise money fro…

> If it's legislators serving the interests of their constituents directly and thus get re-elected, that is one thing. However often legislators make these decisions to serve corporate lobbyists (such as Intuit's) and are working against the interests of their constituents so they can raise money from corporate doners to get reelected.

I actually think we’ve found some common ground here. It’s pretty wack that corporate interests can create detrimental effects on society. But realize that corporations are ALSO the representatives constituents! I wish the world didn’t work this way, but it does.

So since societal governance works this way, I’m sticking to my guns and still argue that accounting departments provide actual value.

Post reply on HN