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Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

med.stanford.edu

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Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#151

Post by carabiner »

serverlessmom wrote: post #108

Hey! I didn't under go SAINT TMS specifically, but I have undergone TMS therapy. Reading this article I'm not sure how different what I received actually is compared to SAINT, but TMS absolutely changed my life. I was referred to TMS after a rash of different medications and years of talk therapy fell short on relieving the worst of my symptoms. Many of the benefits the patients in this article discuss are ones I rec…

I did it too. Didn't seem to help me unfortunately. Really would like to try SAINT when it's approved.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#152

Post by Bilal_io »

fy20 wrote: post #146
rubicon33 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had depression for 20+ years and the best way I would describe it is like this: Think of that little "kick" you get when you think of something you want to do. Maybe you like eating ice cream, maybe you like playing tennis, whatever it is... that feeling, that subconscious little mental boost that gets you up off your ass, and moving... is completely absent in the depressed mind. That spark that initiates and su…

Does that apply to things you 'have' to do as well? I don't really like shopping for groceries, but I'd rather do that, than order take out that's expensive and probably not very healthy. If I'm going to cook something, I'd rather cook something with a different taste than eat pasta again. I don't really want to do laundry, but I do want to have clean clothes that don't smell. If I could afford to do so I wouldn't wo…

> I don't really like shopping for groceries

Have you tried a delivery service? Walmart as an example charges $100 or so a year. And then you pay a tip to the delivery person. I think it's worth it to avoid shopping in person, and cheaper than ordering delivery from restaurants.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#153

Post by eru »

KarlKemp wrote: post #56
argsv wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two mentioned in the article met the FDA definition of remission. It doesn’t say, how many improved in general. This is important specifically since the sample size of the trial is small.

It's the important & useful of the two endpoints they measured. Anything will have a positive effect on depression if it comes with a lot of high-tech vodoo and people in lab coats. Only it won't last and it will the "yeah, I guess I'm feeling better"-level of improvement.

> Only it won't last and it will the "yeah, I guess I'm feeling better"-level of improvement.

Who says it won't last? Most depressions actually do get better by themselves.

How do you think humanity has survived so far?

(Most, but not all. And even if it eventually gets better without meds, there was still a lot of suffering.)

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#154

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

AlexCoventry wrote: post #147

Case size 14, control size 15. It's 2021; you shouldn't be able to publish a psychology result with statistics this weak.

Under the null hypothesis, a difference this large is still extremely unlikely for a group this small. Sometimes, counterintuitively, you don’t need a huge group.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#155

Post by eru »

mlyle wrote: post #38
Benjammer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have the same feelings about radiation therapy for cancer?

It's all a little freaky if you think about it: even in evidence-based medicine, a whole lot of it is people making qualitative determinations and squishy adjustments to treatment, and undoubtedly getting it wrong a whole lot. Then again, the stuff shows benefits in trial, and presumably we get most practitioners trained up and doing the thing that's the standard of care well enough...

There might be the perfect amount of paracetamol to take to treat your light headache.

But in practice people just take two 500mg tablets and call it a day. Works well enough most of the time, even though it might be 'wrong' in some platonic sense of the word. (Eg you might have been helped enough with a slightly lower dose. Or perhaps 1250mg would have been better and suppressed slightly more of the pain. Who knows?)

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#156

Post by girvo »

nebula8804 wrote: post #112
girvo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, the lack of those things are definitely present in myself when I'm experiencing a depressive episode (I am diagnosed with clinical depression): I sleep badly, either not at all or for 12-18 hours a day, I drink far too much, I do not leave my house, and my hobbies either fall by the wayside entirely or I partake in them with no enjoyment or happiness from it. If you're experiencing those, it might be wor…

>For me, a short 3-4 month course of a particular SSRI lets me beat back the worst of it Can you elaborate which one are you using? I was prescribed Wellbutrin/bupropion (along with some therapy sessions) about a month ago and I seem to notice no changes. I'm going to continue to be hopeful but it seems like this wasn't the one for me so just wondering what you were using.

Escitalopram is what I found worked for me. None of the SNRIs did (Effexor and so on), and bupropion isn’t even prescribed where I am for depression for what it’s worth, but I’ve heard some people have decent luck with it, typically as an adjunct with an actual SSRI though.

It took me months to find the right one for me though. Worth talking to your doctor about it if it’s not helping much!

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#157

Post by antris »

fy20 wrote: post #146
rubicon33 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had depression for 20+ years and the best way I would describe it is like this: Think of that little "kick" you get when you think of something you want to do. Maybe you like eating ice cream, maybe you like playing tennis, whatever it is... that feeling, that subconscious little mental boost that gets you up off your ass, and moving... is completely absent in the depressed mind. That spark that initiates and su…

Does that apply to things you 'have' to do as well? I don't really like shopping for groceries, but I'd rather do that, than order take out that's expensive and probably not very healthy. If I'm going to cook something, I'd rather cook something with a different taste than eat pasta again. I don't really want to do laundry, but I do want to have clean clothes that don't smell. If I could afford to do so I wouldn't wo…

Yes. Depending on the severity of the depression, a depressed person might have problems with even basic things as brushing teeth and showering regularly and being able to do household chores.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#158

Post by girvo »

gexla wrote: post #82
girvo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, the lack of those things are definitely present in myself when I'm experiencing a depressive episode (I am diagnosed with clinical depression): I sleep badly, either not at all or for 12-18 hours a day, I drink far too much, I do not leave my house, and my hobbies either fall by the wayside entirely or I partake in them with no enjoyment or happiness from it. If you're experiencing those, it might be wor…

Noticed that both you and the OP mentioned drinking. Just the drinking can cause much of this. Drinking screws up your sleep cycle, which can also cause much of this. Drinking sessions are also time consuming, so you have less time for other things you enjoy anyway. Sure, some things you can do while drinking, but those may not be the things you would prefer to be doing while sober.

Sure! Though I drink basically not at all when I’m not in a depressive episode. It’s more of a subconscious “self medication” thing, and the symptoms don’t subside even if I’m not drinking sadly.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#159

Post by eru »

geysersam wrote: post #136
causi wrote: post #123

Cost (and availability/wait time for nations with public healthcare) are a concern. I know several people who received conventional TMS for 30 minutes a day for six weeks. That cost them, with insurance, about $1500. It was effective for an average of six months. This treatment is an order of magnitude more time spent in the machine, even if over a shorter period. What will it cost? Will it be accessible to those who…

Depression has an enormous economic impact. Fatigue and pain (depression related symptoms) are some of the most common reasons people can't work in the wealthier part of the world. If the treatment costs $4000 dollars yearly and makes the difference between debilitating depression and functioning taxpayer that is self financing for the public healthcare. Not to mention the personal suffering.

> If the treatment costs $4000 dollars yearly and makes the difference between debilitating depression and functioning taxpayer that is self financing for the public healthcare.

That's a good bargain for people who pay out of pocket as well.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#160

Post by carabiner »

AlexCoventry wrote: post #147

Case size 14, control size 15. It's 2021; you shouldn't be able to publish a psychology result with statistics this weak.

Not true. A strong effect can be meaningful for small n. This is well known from power analysis: https://statisticsbyjim.com/hypothesis-testing/sample-size-p...

I also think middlebrow dismissals are discouraged on HN: http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissal...

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