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Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

arstechnica.com

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Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#61

Post by kaba0 »

jcims wrote: post #28
Razengan wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What says our consciousness is not just a long form electro-chemical reaction of deeply nested feedback loops programmed into millions of base pairs?

AFAIK that’s the only explanation we have any evidence for at this point. It’s easy for me to think there’s magic buried in the hundred billion neurons and hundred trillion synapses in the human brain. But in the case of tardigrades or wasps, it becomes much less obvious where the consciousness would ‘live’ with such limited real estate.

A wasp is at least an order of magnitude more complex than a tardigrade though (maybe even two orders?), and flying require quite complex intelligence so I would not put some for of consciousness for wasps. Though I would believe that their “brains” are entirely different from mammal brains, because to be honest, some mammals are really really dumb (and for a long time they were believed to be only “biological robots”?).

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#62

Post by jcims »

kaba0 wrote: post #60
hungryforcodes wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 'neuron' might be a kind of the biological equivalent to the CPU or microcontroller. So saying that the Tardigrade has 200 CPUs sounds pretty good, actually. If you build a drone for example with 200 CPUs, you'd expect it to be pretty capable I'd imagine, including some form of AI or machine learning. And it seems to me neurons by default are machine learning "CPU"s...

Well, not really. They are neither nodes only in a ML algorithm but neither are they complete processors. They are somewhere in between where they can do some limited “signal processing” (eg. throttle signal frequency, negate it, and have some form of primitive memory even), but they are likely not Turing complex in themselves.

Just dumping this somewhere, pretty informative video on how neuronal signalling works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKE8qK9UCrU

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#63

Post by jcims »

kaba0 wrote: post #59
pibechorro wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its safer to assume all life is conscious than the common assumption that we are somehow special in that regard.

Is a primitive bacterium in any way or shape conscious? I think that would be a way too generous usage of the word.

A bacterium is a single cell. The neurons in our brains are also single cells. If we think consciousness is in the brain, then isn't it also in the neurons? If its in the neurons, is it in a neuron?

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#64

Post by fleddr »

yyyk wrote: post #58
fleddr wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the technical answer to your question but I do think that us humans have continuously underestimated the complexity and intelligence (in the broadest sense) of animals. First, we see them as emotionless objects. Then we acknowledge that some animals seem quite smart, such as dolphins, dogs, pigs and cows, and of course other primates. Then we discover that far more animals have complex systems to communi…

" do think that us humans have continuously underestimated the complexity and intelligence of animals... First, we see them as emotionless objects." No premodern culture thought so. As far as I know, it's only from Descartes on that the opinion you note existed.

I think a little earlier. Religion, in particular Christianity, is responsible for create a massive conceptual divide between mankind, created in gods' image, and everything else, lower life forms at our disposal.

Another pivotal moment would be have to be the invention of agriculture, some 10K years ago. Only from this point on begins the idea of animals as property.

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#65

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

mjburgess wrote: post #50
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amoeba has zero neurons, and yet it can hunt prey and can reproduce sexually. Our understanding of intelligence is so laughably primitive that it is "not even wrong".

I think we're well aware that systems without intelligence can act as-if they have it. It is on this basis humans have been superstitiously imparting souls to any-old-thing for thousands of years.

What makes you say that an amoeba doesn't have intelligence?

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#66

Post by maxbond »

Joeri wrote: post #44
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amoeba has zero neurons, and yet it can hunt prey and can reproduce sexually. Our understanding of intelligence is so laughably primitive that it is "not even wrong".

Makes me think of the classic video of a white blood cell chasing a bacterium. You can sense the frantic desperation of the bacterium as it tries to get away from something monstrous that will inevitably swallow it whole. https://youtu.be/JnlULOjUhSQ

I love this video and I agree that we tend to make entirely arbitrary decisions about what is and is not intelligent, which is far more a reflection on our own preconceptions than the nature of intelligence, but I would note that bacteria have a completely different experience of their environment than we do of ours, and always have a bit of a frantic vibe to them.

On their scale, they are moving through molasses while being buffeted by particles causing them to turn and spin; they are entirely incapable of moving in a straight line, and their motility is fundamentally random. So they always have a sort of vibrating, frenetic quality to them.

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#67

Post by kaba0 »

jcims wrote: post #63
kaba0 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a primitive bacterium in any way or shape conscious? I think that would be a way too generous usage of the word.

A bacterium is a single cell. The neurons in our brains are also single cells. If we think consciousness is in the brain, then isn't it also in the neurons? If its in the neurons, is it in a neuron?

No? Emergent properties are a thing.

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#69

Post by hungryforcodes »

kaba0 wrote: post #60
hungryforcodes wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 'neuron' might be a kind of the biological equivalent to the CPU or microcontroller. So saying that the Tardigrade has 200 CPUs sounds pretty good, actually. If you build a drone for example with 200 CPUs, you'd expect it to be pretty capable I'd imagine, including some form of AI or machine learning. And it seems to me neurons by default are machine learning "CPU"s...

Well, not really. They are neither nodes only in a ML algorithm but neither are they complete processors. They are somewhere in between where they can do some limited “signal processing” (eg. throttle signal frequency, negate it, and have some form of primitive memory even), but they are likely not Turing complex in themselves.

Would they need to be Turing complete? Seems to me they operate on a completely different principle.

Anyways my statement was analogical -- and as we know analogies are merely tools for extending thinking from one paradigm to another. Best not to take it TOO literally.

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#70

Post by hungryforcodes »

jcims wrote: post #62
kaba0 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, not really. They are neither nodes only in a ML algorithm but neither are they complete processors. They are somewhere in between where they can do some limited “signal processing” (eg. throttle signal frequency, negate it, and have some form of primitive memory even), but they are likely not Turing complex in themselves.

Just dumping this somewhere, pretty informative video on how neuronal signalling works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKE8qK9UCrU

Great video! Love the visuals -- thanks:)
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