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Should you contribute open data to OpenStreetMap?

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Re: Should you contribute open data to OpenStreetMap?

#211

Post by Tostino »

purple_turtle wrote: post #175
Tostino wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is where there could be some improvements. It would be quite nice to allow a review process to be setup for some types of edits. Plenty of examples in the market to get inspiration from.

In many areas there is zero or just one local mapper. And vandalism and malicious editing remains rare. That would be enormous effort for minimal benefit.

That is fine when the scale for OSM is intentionally small. But if larger companies want to use OSM as a base for their mapping solution while contributing changes upstream, it will be helpful to have that infrastructure setup for merging in changes without issue.

Edit: I am not suggesting the existing OSM community build this, if companies want to do this they will put in the effort.

Re: Should you contribute open data to OpenStreetMap?

#212

Post by Brakenshire »

matkoniecz wrote: post #210
Brakenshire wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was looking at it, I got the impression a produced work was something like a t shirt with a map printed on it. Is that wrong? Or any idea where I could read about how the interpret that permission?

> If you make a map from OpenStreetMap geodata and publish it, you may publish the map under any license you like. In ODbL parlance, this is known as a "Produced Work". https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Lega...

But the second bullet point is:

> However, if you have added to or enhanced our data in order to make the map, you must make those additions publicly available without charge

So the produced work seems to be only a map, derived entirely from OSM data with no combination of data from other sources, except as a wholly separate layer. And any processing you do on the map has to be made available freely.

It's totally unclear to me how you can make a technology business based on the geographical database. For instance, I can't see how you'd read that section and conclude that the bike routing engine mentioned before would be a produced work (the section starts with "If you make a map from OpenStreetMap geodata..."). And if it did the algorithms you used to produce it would have to be openly published and made available to competitors.

Re: Should you contribute open data to OpenStreetMap?

#213

Post by tapiok »

burkaman wrote: post #145
tapiok wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and their share of edits is growing. Maybe one day OSM mappers will wake up and realize they provide free labor to corporate giants that sucks economic value from community. Hopefully it will be not too late.

Can you expand on how contributions suck economic value from the community? What community, and what value is being lost?

The economic value left on the table by volunteers is consumed not by the ones who need it most, but by people who need it the least. This breaks the 2nd principle of justice as formulated by Rawls. Shall I say more...

Re: Should you contribute open data to OpenStreetMap?

#214

Post by CjMalone »

onphonenow wrote: post #119
matkoniecz wrote: post #23

> Microsoft Bing uses OSM in several regions, and is slowly moving from it’s traditional providers to OSM globally. They provide machine-learning (ML) datasets that they have computed from areal imagery. They employ nobody in the OSM community. Microsoft Bing made its aerial imagery available for OSM editing, this is often very very very useful for mapping (speaking from own experience as an OSM mapper). See https://…

The article is very weird. If the author doesn't understand the value of the aerial imagery (global) they have obviously never tried to license this stuff globally. That alone should give Microsoft "platinum" status. Secondly, you need users to justify investments in these products. Microsoft brings users. Now businesses and others start paying attention, updating their details etc.

As is prefixed in the post, this was originally a private response to Daniel Aleksandersen's post about Google Maps [1]. It was a quick email, not a fully thought out article. I'm not a writer, and defiantly not an author.

I understand the value that Microsoft brings via it's imagery, Map Builder and it's users. OpenStreetMap wouldn't be in the position it is today without Microsoft, and the other commercial interests involved in OSM. I want there involvement, I welcome it, and I'm grateful for it.

I am a little soured by the value that I put into society (through contributing thousands of hours to OSM [2], and my day job), and the value I get back. This email wasn't meant to discus that, but I guess it underlays everything I ever do and say.

[1] https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/maps-public-service.html [2] https://www.hdyc.neis-one.org/?CjMalone

Re: Should you contribute open data to OpenStreetMap?

#215

Post by cjmalone »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #87

This article is just factually wrong. It alleges repeatedly that Facebook, Apple, Microsoft etc “employ nobody in the OSM community”. They do. Microsoft even employed the founder of OSM, Steve Coast, for a while. If your criterion is ‘involved in OSM prior to current employment’, I could name a bunch of people currently working for Facebook, Amazon, Snap etc of whom that’s true. (One such person even stood for electi…

When I first wrote "employ nobody in the OSM community" I actually wrote it as "they employ almost nobody in the OSM community", but changed it to be more emotive. Daniel Aleksandersen italicised it to be even more emotive.

For the purposes of this email, I used the term "OSM Community" as meaning actively contributing to OSM personally/prior to employment, as you assumed. You could view that as gate keeping the "OSM Community", and you'd be right. But I do think it's important to be able to differentiate people who are employed, and map exclusively as part of that job vs people who are involved for other reasons. The term "OSM Community" was clearly the wrong one, but I'm glad you parsed it correctly.

I believe the amount of people that you could list who were involved in OSM prior to being employee is repetitively small. From the conversations I've had with some Organised Editing Teams, they don't hire out. Employees of the companies can get transferred to those teams/departments, but they don't have public job postings for people to apply for.

Re: Should you contribute open data to OpenStreetMap?

#216

Post by seaman1921 »

Dah00n wrote: post #200
seaman1921 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is nothing like 'paying indirectly'. did it overall cost them any money ? no did it overall cost them any physical effort ? no did google force them to use the service ? no Does it really sting so much to admit Google Maps is a free to use service?

It's not free. Maybe your privacy is worth nothing -that's up to you to decide- but mine is close to priceless. So to me using Google maps would be hugely expensive.

lol, my privacy is worth same as yours but you are too technologically challenged to hide it online.

Re: Should you contribute open data to OpenStreetMap?

#217

Post by CjMalone »

jessriedel wrote: post #190

Outsiders profit from a public commons project, so we shouldn't contribute to the commons? Am I misunderstanding the argument here? Wikipedia helps innumerable companies do basic research. Should I stop contributing to Wikipedia? When I clean trash from a local river, Sam's Row Boat rental benefits. Should I stop cleaning the river?

> Outsiders profit from a public commons project, so we shouldn't contribute to the commons?

That actually really resonates with me, thanks for writing it. It sounds like something I'd say in a conversation, flipping/re phrasing the argument to make someone see it differently.

I often try to equate OSM to the commons (physical land, and digital software/media/culture). I'm glad I found OSM, it's the sweet spot for me, technical enough to interest me, but not to complicated that I can't contribute. I've tried (sometimes successfully) to contribute to Free Software, but unfortunately I'm not a developer. Obviously I can't add more physical common land to the world, but I do advocate for it, and our PRoW.

Thank you.

> When I clean trash from a local river, Sam's Row Boat Rental benefits. Should I stop cleaning the river?

But should Sam's Row Boat Rental contribute to cleaning the river too? What about Sam's Fish and Chips, whos packaging is littering the river? Do they have a responsibility to clear the river post-littering? Do they have a responsibility to put bins around to stop the river being getting littered in? :P

Re: Should you contribute open data to OpenStreetMap?

#218

Post by cjmalone »

jmnicolas wrote: post #148

To me this article reads like "I want to get a job paid by the big players". The fact is, it's not a one way street, they're contributing back with data. We all benefit from this. While I dislike what these companies stand for (I use a Linux desktop and a degoogled phone) in this case I don't think they're in the wrong.

> To me this article reads like "I want to get a job paid by the big players".

You're not wrong. This is an interesting time in my life. I have next to no formal education and and no work experience worth documenting. In order to pay rent, I've been working retail, through a pandemic, and just before Christmas I finally got Covid. I say "finally" because we all knew it was going to happen. It was never "if", but "when".

I'm questioning the amount of value I put into our world, and the amount I get out.

Some would argue the amount of value I add to the supermarket is almost nothing, and so I deserve to be paid almost nothing. I'm not going to argue against this, but the supermarket is making record profits and clearly generating lots of "value" for the owners, all while I get a real terms wage cut due to inflation.

OSM is the interesting part. I clearly add value to OSM, and in turn everyone who uses it. And it's something I enjoy, and am good at. I would like to be compensated in some way for that. I would love to never have to play Russian Roulette again, simply by being a wage slave in a supermarket in a pandemic.

Ironically one of the quantifiable ways I add value to the OSM consumers is by adding address data that gets used by delivery companies. This improves there turn around time for each delivery point, but ultimately leads to a harsher targets for the employees. (Please everyone, watch "Sorry We Missed You"!).

> The fact is, it's not a one way street, they're contributing back with data. We all benefit from this.

They absolutely do, and I'm grateful for it, but I'm also selfish and want to be compensated.

> While I dislike what these companies stand for (I use a Linux desktop and a degoogled phone) in this case I don't think they're in the wrong.

They aren't wrong, in terms of the licence. (They are wrong in terms of what they stand for) :P

I'm on LineageOS at the moment, because my phone is so old. It's great, but I'd really love to be on GrapheneOS. I just can't afford to spend that much money on a Pixel that will be EOL so soon.

Re: Should you contribute open data to OpenStreetMap?

#219

Post by jessriedel »

CjMalone wrote: post #217
jessriedel wrote: post #190

Outsiders profit from a public commons project, so we shouldn't contribute to the commons? Am I misunderstanding the argument here? Wikipedia helps innumerable companies do basic research. Should I stop contributing to Wikipedia? When I clean trash from a local river, Sam's Row Boat rental benefits. Should I stop cleaning the river?

> Outsiders profit from a public commons project, so we shouldn't contribute to the commons? That actually really resonates with me, thanks for writing it. It sounds like something I'd say in a conversation, flipping/re phrasing the argument to make someone see it differently. I often try to equate OSM to the commons (physical land, and digital software/media/culture). I'm glad I found OSM, it's the sweet spot for me…

I agree Sam and Chips should probably contribute (although it depends on details).

Re: Should you contribute open data to OpenStreetMap?

#220

Post by matkoniecz »

Brakenshire wrote: post #212
matkoniecz wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you make a map from OpenStreetMap geodata and publish it, you may publish the map under any license you like. In ODbL parlance, this is known as a "Produced Work". https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Lega...

But the second bullet point is: > However, if you have added to or enhanced our data in order to make the map, you must make those additions publicly available without charge So the produced work seems to be only a map, derived entirely from OSM data with no combination of data from other sources, except as a wholly separate layer. And any processing you do on the map has to be made available freely. It's totally unc…

> It's totally unclear to me how you can make a technology business based on the geographical database.

Routing engine using pure OSM data can be fully proprietary and in case of using additional data it is enough to make that data available. There is no requirement to open processing tools.

Google can make GoogleWithoutGoogleData Map app using OSM data and keep it fully proprietary.

They could take OSM data for roads and land use and own for shops.

Though if they would start merging OSM data and own they would need to publish own data. It would likely apply in case of taking traffic data and using OSM road geometries to process it.

warning: I am not a lawyer.

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