Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size • Hacker News Board

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#51

Post by pibechorro » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 12:51 PM UTC

jcims wrote: post #7

With a few minutes of googling the only reference i can find says that Tardigrades have approximately 200 neurons in their brains [1] and their dry weight is on the order of one microgram [2]. They also have a lower count of synaptic connections (from the same paper): >Thus, miniaturisation of the tardigrade nervous system is achieved largely by reducing cell numbers, neuropil branches and the number of synaptic conn…

Its safer to assume all life is conscious than the common assumption that we are somehow special in that regard.

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#52

Post by eitland » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 1:51 PM UTC

jcims wrote: post #7

With a few minutes of googling the only reference i can find says that Tardigrades have approximately 200 neurons in their brains [1] and their dry weight is on the order of one microgram [2]. They also have a lower count of synaptic connections (from the same paper): >Thus, miniaturisation of the tardigrade nervous system is achieved largely by reducing cell numbers, neuropil branches and the number of synaptic conn…

I had a light bulb moment a few years ago when I saw a seagull come in with the wind, turn against it and land perfectly at the top of a pole.

Since then everything AI is still impressive to me but it just doesn't feel very advanced.

Within a skull smaller than my fist, these birds have routines for repowering, communication, duplicating themselves, attack and defense.

That is advanced.

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#53

Post by hypertele-Xii » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 1:52 PM UTC

pibechorro wrote: post #51

jcims wrote: post #7

With a few minutes of googling the only reference i can find says that Tardigrades have approximately 200 neurons in their brains [1] and their dry weight is on the order of one microgram [2]. They also have a lower count of synaptic connections (from the same paper): >Thus, miniaturisation of the tardigrade nervous system is achieved largely by reducing cell numbers, neuropil branches and the number of synaptic conn…

Its safer to assume all life is conscious than the common assumption that we are somehow special in that regard.

All life is conscious, but is all consciousness alive?

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#54

Post by Symmetry » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 1:55 PM UTC

jcims wrote: post #7

With a few minutes of googling the only reference i can find says that Tardigrades have approximately 200 neurons in their brains [1] and their dry weight is on the order of one microgram [2]. They also have a lower count of synaptic connections (from the same paper): >Thus, miniaturisation of the tardigrade nervous system is achieved largely by reducing cell numbers, neuropil branches and the number of synaptic conn…

Evolution is really very clever not just in the how our neurons control our bodies but also in how our physical forms make the motions we need to perform natural. As an extreme case, there's the famous video of a fish able to swim upstream despite being dead[1]. Working with robotic grasping professionally has made me acutely aware of how awesome my hands are and how much easier they make daily life compared to simpler alternatives. All of which is to say that we shouldn't think about the tardigrades locomotion just in terms of the neurons its using.

[1]https://fyfluiddynamics.com/2018/07/when-i-was-a-child-my-fa...

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#55

Post by ru552 » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

tiahura wrote: post #4

“The team was surprised to note that the water bears did not have distinct gaits for each speed, like horses as they transition from a walk to a gallop. Rather, their locomotion closely resembled that of insects and arthropods, scurrying along faster and faster with no change to the basic step pattern.” So they expected them to walk like horses and not insects? That seems odd.

I think they were just trying to express that animals generally change their gait as they increase speed. These specific animals do not, which is akin to insects.

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#56

Post by ddingus » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

eloff wrote: post #43

ddingus wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they are a case for this idea of the universe itself being conscious and beings tap into that via neurological mechanisms we do not understand well. It may be a base level of complexity / capability is needed to tap into the "field of consciousness", which could explain bees, these things, and other seemingly too small living systems doing more than their apparent weight class would indicate is possible.

There's no reason to believe this is true about the universe, but it is a fun idea to think about. We know so little about consciousness, intelligence, and the brain in general. It is amazing how much insects seem to accomplish with so little.

For sure. The significant point is we just don't know much about consciousness.

Given that state of affairs, I find it useful to be aware of the various major, core ideas. Anything could lead us to some greater understanding.

It is a fun idea to think about, like a field of sorts that can be tapped into.

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#57

Post by visarga » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

mildmotive wrote: post #49

visarga wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For me it also raises the question of whether they have any subjective experience approximating what we describe as consciousness, or if the entirety of their life is just a long form electro-chemical reaction of deeply nested feedback loops programmed into ~55 million base pairs. Maybe they are the same thing. Adapting to the environment in order to survive is also the role of consciousness and intelligence in hum…

But that still doesn’t explain how we, or other living beings are able to see and feel things from our own perspective. It is genuinely a hard problem, especially if you try to understand it from a purely naturalistic pov.

You can try to explain it:

- we form unsupervised representations for vision, hearing and the other senses (first person perceptions)

- we have goals that paint any situation into good or bad, any action into useful or not (emotions associated to the relation between perceptions and goals)

- we form memories and our experience is dependent on past actions (semantic, episodic and procedural memory)

- our environment is full of other humans so we have to predict their behavior as well, and we get to see ourselves as we think they see us (the self)

It suggests a lot about how we get to "see and feel things from our own perspective". We have actual brain circuits dedicated for that, and a supportive environment for cultivating them.

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#58

Post by yyyk » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #16

jcims wrote: post #7

With a few minutes of googling the only reference i can find says that Tardigrades have approximately 200 neurons in their brains [1] and their dry weight is on the order of one microgram [2]. They also have a lower count of synaptic connections (from the same paper): >Thus, miniaturisation of the tardigrade nervous system is achieved largely by reducing cell numbers, neuropil branches and the number of synaptic conn…

I don't know the technical answer to your question but I do think that us humans have continuously underestimated the complexity and intelligence (in the broadest sense) of animals. First, we see them as emotionless objects. Then we acknowledge that some animals seem quite smart, such as dolphins, dogs, pigs and cows, and of course other primates. Then we discover that far more animals have complex systems to communi…

" do think that us humans have continuously underestimated the complexity and intelligence of animals... First, we see them as emotionless objects."

No premodern culture thought so. As far as I know, it's only from Descartes on that the opinion you note existed.

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#59

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

pibechorro wrote: post #51

jcims wrote: post #7

With a few minutes of googling the only reference i can find says that Tardigrades have approximately 200 neurons in their brains [1] and their dry weight is on the order of one microgram [2]. They also have a lower count of synaptic connections (from the same paper): >Thus, miniaturisation of the tardigrade nervous system is achieved largely by reducing cell numbers, neuropil branches and the number of synaptic conn…

Its safer to assume all life is conscious than the common assumption that we are somehow special in that regard.

Is a primitive bacterium in any way or shape conscious? I think that would be a way too generous usage of the word.

Re: Tardigrades walk like insects 500k times their size

#60

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

hungryforcodes wrote: post #32

snidane wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

200 neurons, yet still more AI complete than any concocted deep learning attempt with way more of so called "neurons".

A 'neuron' might be a kind of the biological equivalent to the CPU or microcontroller. So saying that the Tardigrade has 200 CPUs sounds pretty good, actually. If you build a drone for example with 200 CPUs, you'd expect it to be pretty capable I'd imagine, including some form of AI or machine learning. And it seems to me neurons by default are machine learning "CPU"s...

Well, not really. They are neither nodes only in a ML algorithm but neither are they complete processors. They are somewhere in between where they can do some limited “signal processing” (eg. throttle signal frequency, negate it, and have some form of primitive memory even), but they are likely not Turing complex in themselves.