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“Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

paulbutler.org

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Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#551

Post by oblio »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #204
user-the-name wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the most crucial question about everything crypto-related. Because it turns out every crypto market is a negative-sum game. If you invest, you are guaranteed to lose on average. If you do happen to win, your gains are coming out of the pocket of someone else who lost even more. The price of the token in question doesn't enter into this at all. It can rise, fall, anything. It is still a negative-sum game, but…

>It is still a negative-sum game, but some people have not yet realised that they lost. And some people have not lost at all. As a lifelong poker player, the calculus is very much the same. A poker game where rake is taken out is a negative-sum game. But that doesn't mean that every player loses, even if they play forever. There will be more net losses than net wins, but these are not evenly distributed.

That's a pyramid scheme and/or gambling. You're relying on many marks to lose money to make money.

There's a reason we regulate or ban that.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#552

Post by rank0 »

lmm wrote: post #526
rank0 wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree here. Instead of calling it “tax avoidance” let’s just talk about reducing your tax burden as much as possible. This is the prudent move for any individual or tax paying entity. Taking advantage of your roth, 401k, homestead exemption, writing off losses, etc… absolutely provides value to the tax payer. The value is literally more money for the tax payer who can now further participate in the economy. The…

> Taking advantage of your roth, 401k, homestead exemption, writing off losses, etc… absolutely provides value to the tax payer. The value is literally more money for the tax payer who can now further participate in the economy. But it's zero-sum - every dollar they gained was a dollar taken out of the public purse. And worse, hours of human labour were spent on this moving around rather than something productive. Ta…

I guess we just have a fundamental disagreement.

I argue that the increase in savings and therefore money spent participating in the economy is inherently valueable.

In addition companies are less likely to fail, and can continue to generate value. Individuals have a bigger safety net and can be more productive for society. You already touched on the fact that government has reduced burden for social services.

Government tax revenue can be poorly allocated and wasteful.

The accountants provide a valuable service navigating the complex tax laws. This allows me to outsource the work and spend more time being “productive” for society.

A great example is Tesla. They may not have survived without the billions in tax credits they received. Lots of people believe they generate tremendous value for society.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#553

Post by meheleventyone »

danShumway wrote: post #170
58x14 wrote: post #32

In the late 2000s, as a teenager, I was gifted a Runescape account. This account had level 80+ woodcutting, allowing one to chop magic trees - which would produce the most expensive lumber in the game. It took a staggering number of real hours to achieve this skill level, we're talking several hundred hours minimum. At some point I had realized that there were different sketchy websites that would buy and sell the in…

I know a lot of people have fond memories of this kind of thing, but from a designer perspective, is it good that a game is so boring that players are willing to pay real-world money to skip parts of it? Runescape set up a system that was so grind-heavy that players broke server rules and wrote automated scripts to grind for them, and other players gave them money to do that. Because the minute-to-minute gameplay of…

I agree with most of this including pay-to-earn, more worryingly there are other types of to-earn being floated like learn-to-earn. It’s almost like people are rushing headlong into dystopia and ignoring all the downsides of extrinsic rewards.

That said a successful game like this will always have a non-trivial part of the player base willing to pay to skip parts of the game. They want the success now not later and aren’t willing to work for it. Even if the journey is actually fun. Most games take this quite seriously though and work against gold farming and cheating as it ruins the experience they set out to make.

Where it becomes evil is when you set out to make it horrible intentionally so a bigger part of the player base has to pay to remove it and continue playing.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#554

Post by lmm »

rank0 wrote: post #552
lmm wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taking advantage of your roth, 401k, homestead exemption, writing off losses, etc… absolutely provides value to the tax payer. The value is literally more money for the tax payer who can now further participate in the economy. But it's zero-sum - every dollar they gained was a dollar taken out of the public purse. And worse, hours of human labour were spent on this moving around rather than something productive. Ta…

I guess we just have a fundamental disagreement. I argue that the increase in savings and therefore money spent participating in the economy is inherently valueable. In addition companies are less likely to fail, and can continue to generate value. Individuals have a bigger safety net and can be more productive for society. You already touched on the fact that government has reduced burden for social services. Govern…

> I argue that the increase in savings and therefore money spent participating in the economy is inherently valueable.

> In addition companies are less likely to fail, and can continue to generate value. Individuals have a bigger safety net and can be more productive for society. You already touched on the fact that government has reduced burden for social services.

It's zero-sum though - you've increased individuals' savings but reduced public funds (which can be spent in the economy through e.g. public infrastructure, and/or used to provide a safety net, probably in a more efficient way since the risks are pooled).

> Government tax revenue can be poorly allocated and wasteful.

Sure. So can individual or corporate wealth. Even if you think the tax rate is too high, the most efficient solution would be to change the tax rate, not add a bunch of loopholes.

> The accountants provide a valuable service navigating the complex tax laws.

The argument is that that complexity is largely bullshit.

> A great example is Tesla. They may not have survived without the billions in tax credits they received. Lots of people believe they generate tremendous value for society.

Corporate tax avoidance means the government has less money from which to offer that kind of targeted tax credit.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#555

Post by avgcorrection »

firekvz wrote: post #424

I didnt read much of the thread but I will assume that most of the people here is aware of how every single NFT game is just a ponzi. But I've lived myself, what the author mentions as a "way to lift people out of poverty.", from the era before NFT or "play to earn" games existed. I come from Venezuela, a full 3rd world country and I was "lucky" to play an MMO (lineage 2) during my young days and somehow I was good a…

> I come from Venezuela, a full 3rd world

Considering the Red Scare rhetoric in the West about Venezuela I’d say it is solidly second world.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#556

Post by saiya-jin »

josh2600 wrote: post #545
danShumway wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a lot of people have fond memories of this kind of thing, but from a designer perspective, is it good that a game is so boring that players are willing to pay real-world money to skip parts of it? Runescape set up a system that was so grind-heavy that players broke server rules and wrote automated scripts to grind for them, and other players gave them money to do that. Because the minute-to-minute gameplay of…

I have to say that many of my fondest memories from all kinds of systems; games, work, play, all of my favorite times were when I was finding an unscratched edge in a model. There’s something superlative about finding a hack, a way to obtain something that the designer of the game did not intend. The feeling of “I know your game better than you do” is something I shall never forget. Those fleeting moments where you h…

You make it sound so posh but there is other, much more real face to all this - breaking the game for everybody else. You are basically having fun at the expense of literally everyone else involved.

Sure, you achieve it by being clever, and theoretically you report your finding to creators and don't abuse your position of power, but thats not what usually happened.

Behavior like this is the core reason why I don't play online games of any type anymore - the idea of proper fun looks distantly different to this constant 'finding metagame' for which I have less polite names. Plus its a waste of life and ones talents but thats another topic.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#559

Post by apatters »

I don't get how this is a bullshit job.

Gamer #1 likes to play the game. There are some parts he likes more than others.

Gamer #2 comes along and says, OK I will do the parts you don't like, and I'll sell my output to you for $XXX.

Gamer #1 agrees, the transaction takes place, it is entirely voluntary, and both participants find the outcome to be valuable for them.

How is this bullshit?

This is pretty much the reason we have money.

What sounds like bullshit to me is there is some... quasi-socialist I guess? value framework being imposed by some would-be intellectual who's totally uninvolved in the transaction, but thinks he knows better than the ones who are. Fuck that guy, he has no skin in the game.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#560

Post by vaylian »

apatters wrote: post #559

I don't get how this is a bullshit job. Gamer #1 likes to play the game. There are some parts he likes more than others. Gamer #2 comes along and says, OK I will do the parts you don't like, and I'll sell my output to you for $XXX. Gamer #1 agrees, the transaction takes place, it is entirely voluntary, and both participants find the outcome to be valuable for them. How is this bullshit? This is pretty much the reason…

I do not know which definition is used here. But I would call this bullshit, because this is artificial scarcity which is controlled by grindy, non-constructive and typically non-fun work. The makers of the game could just sell the NFT directly instead of requiring other people to waste their time.
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