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“Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

paulbutler.org

191–200 of 700 posts

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#191
post #42

As I was reading Graeber, it's useful to imagine useless job economies of the past. Is a medieval abbey "useless?" Clergy? Servants to the clergy? How about courtiers? Courtiers' dress makers? These classes represented a small part of most societies in the past, though not always that small. In any case, it's obvious that whatever needs these jobs serve are cultural. Don't underestimate culture. Money is a cultural c…

I think the point of Graeber (RIP btw) was to highlight that certain jobs (the bullshit ones) are self-fulfilling promises; specifically jobs "that only exist because everyone else is spending so much of their time working in all the other ones." [1]

What's going on here is people doing work knowing it's actual bullshit. Just like grinding in the game. There are entire sweeps of the economy dedicated to this kind of work and it's a huge waste.

1. https://www.strike.coop/bullshit-jobs/

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#192
> In a crypto economy crowded with vapourware and alpha-stage software, Axie Infinity stands out. Not only has it amassed a large base of users, the in-game economy has actually provided a real-world income stream to working-class Filipinos impacted by the pandemic. Some spend hours each day playing the game, and then sell the in-game currency they earn to pay their real-world bills. That’s obviously a good thing for them, but it also appears to be a near-Platonic example of Graeber’s definition of a bullshit job.

That part about the pandemic might be the most important thing in the article. Would something like this have taken off had pandemic restrictions not wrecked the Philippine economy?

A glance at the exchange rate for the Smooth Love Potion token shows a vertical surge right as lockdowns started to be imposed, followed by a 90% crash that started in around July of this year:

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/smooth-love-potion/

The start of the crash coincides with the start of noticeably higher CPI in the US and well-known product demand shock. That shock must have put higher upward pressure on demand for labor in the developing world, making Axie less appealing.

I can't help but think of this as a preview into a future world in which automation and economic stagnation renders ever larger parts of the real economy ineffective at supporting a living wage.

This kind of bullshit job offers a wealth transfer mechanism from those who have it to those who don't, with financial speculation being the conduit. Universal Basic Income is another path. Revolution is a third option.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#193
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there a there there without an underlying token that's gone up XX% in the last N months and everyone hopes will still go up XX% in the next N months? Alternatively, even simpler: where is the money coming from ? A bunch of people playing a game are a closed system, and no value is created by playing the game. If the only reason why players are earning money from this game is because more people are continually b…

Where the money was coming from when Facebook, Google, Youtube, Twitter etc were really good places that were free to use? They all were working to "make the world a better place" and not making money as they were burning billions each year, challenging the traditional and profitable companies. With Amazon prices were amazing, you had unlimited rights and not only buying but also selling was great. Bezos was worth qu…

> Where the money was coming from when Facebook, Google, Youtube, Twitter etc were really good places that were free to use?

I don’t think this is very mysterious. It’s coming from investors who are spending money in the expectation of future profits as the business scales and reaches greater efficiencies and increases monetization.

In the case of this cryptocurrency there’s no obvious point where these tokens suddenly become useful. People only buy them because somebody else will be willing to buy them later (which, of course, relies on ever-increasing amounts of money entering the system). With a stock you are at least theoretically anchored to real world value, since you can buy out a company with stocks and then liquidate the company’s assets.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#194
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitpicks because this game was my childhood. I totally support your sentiment though. > It took a staggering number of real hours to achieve this skill level * 97 logs (30 minutes) * 293 oaks (1 hr) * 714 willows (2.5 hr) * 19,246 maple (very inefficient compared to willow cutting rate - 60 hour). If you did yews it would be many hundreds of hours. About 70 hours done inefficiently. > What if I wrote a macro Macros w…

> Botting in general was the wild west in this game from about 2008 - ~2014. There’s a weird, secret history around Runescape botting that I really hope gets told in full one day. Essentially, the biggest and best botting client from the 2008-2011 era was Powerbot, later rebranded RSBot. It was written and managed mostly by some CS student from the UK, who went by the handle Jacmob, and used some bytecode editing + r…

For those interested, here is a pretty well produced video on the situation:

https://youtu.be/4ELRFROUf64

One thing that was left out in your summary is how jacmob was hired: Shortly after the Bot Nuke he showed up at the annual convention of Jagex and showed off his (still working) new Bot to the one of the heads of Jagex, who ended up hiring him.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#195
> Games that maximize property rights (as Axie Infinity wisely hasn’t) are bound to be overrun with cheaters and bots, which in turn will just bring down the value of in-game assets anyway.

This may happen temporarily, but a sufficiently well tested and bullet proof enough game should able to combat that.

This is the same argument people made before BTC: it's just a matter of time before any decentralized currency would get hacked therefore we cannot have a decentralized currency.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#197
This reminds me of the last time I went to Vegas with my two best buds from college. I was a broke grad student, so I couldn't really do any of the entertainment stuff in the city. I also don't really like gambling, so I had a conundrum of how to spend the daylight hours, before the nightlife started up.

We ended up sitting at the nickel slots, playing just enough to stay busy so we could flag down cocktail waitresses for comped drinks. If you were economical enough with your slots play, not selecting multiple lines or multipliers, it was a cheap way to drink.

Pretty quickly, it occurred to me that I was doing a bullshit job. Why had I come to Vegas to feed a machine that wasn't even entertaining me? I felt like livestock.

Eventually, I cracked to the peer pressure of my buddies and decided to play poker with them. I won about $700 as someone who had played maybe twice before in my life, but that's another story...

Interestingly, one of the friends I was with was one of the first people I ever met to make money selling virtual goods. As a high school kid in 2001 or 2002 (well before the Second Life example the author cites in 2005), he made money selling Diablo II accounts he had beefed up in his spare time.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#198
post #152
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delightful, I very nearly stopped my stream of consciousness to check the numbers, I wondered if anyone else would. It seems many of us share nostalgia around RS.

When I get really bored I create a new account for fun. I normally realize it’s a waste of time and stop after about 6 hours of clicking trees or ores lol. However it’s always cool to see it’s still there and normally changes quite a bit every time I go back to it. Skills go to 120 nowadays for example!

You should look into the Old School Runescape game mode. Someone just made a really captivating series limiting his character to just one region of the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk5XuqLrf3U&list=PLWiMc19-qa...

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#199
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't talking about the intrinsic value of Bitcoin. You are talking about it's value relative to USD. These are completely different things. Bitcoin has intrinsic value outside of the fiat system. It can be used entirely independent of fiat. Whether that will become common is another matter, but the value of Bitcoin does not have to depend solely on it's value relative to USD.

As long as miners can't pay the power company with their mining rewards, bitcoin can't exist outside the fiat system. The mining reward denominated in the currency the miner has to pay their electricity bill in MUST be higher than the electricity cost to mine the reward, otherwise the miners go bankrupt.

Capital-intensive industrial-scale miners might go bankrupt, but the origin of Bitcoin (starting from the whitepaper) imagined an ecosystem powered by effectively spare CPU cycles, where the marginal cost of electricity wasn't a big factor.

The beauty of the design lies in the balance of the incentives -- if electricity is too expensive, then sure miners will drop out, which lowers the hashrate and thus the security of the ecosystem, but remember that if electricity is expensive for honest miners than it will also be expensive for attackers. And if somehow there is an asymmetry where attackers have access to cheaper electricity than other honest miners, well it's likely in their economic interest to simply become miners themselves rather than attackers...

Bitcoin can easily exist at a minimal survival level that is effectively outside the fiat system for all practical intents and purposes, by leeching off free or near-zero cost electricity (I mean, nobody cares about the electricity bill for "folding@home"). In that kind of mode, it may not have industrial scale and you might not want to transact trillions of fiat-dollars worth of value through it, but it can easily exist.

Re: “Play-to-Earn” and Bullshit Jobs

#200
post #32

In the late 2000s, as a teenager, I was gifted a Runescape account. This account had level 80+ woodcutting, allowing one to chop magic trees - which would produce the most expensive lumber in the game. It took a staggering number of real hours to achieve this skill level, we're talking several hundred hours minimum. At some point I had realized that there were different sketchy websites that would buy and sell the in…

I know a lot of people have fond memories of this kind of thing, but from a designer perspective, is it good that a game is so boring that players are willing to pay real-world money to skip parts of it? Runescape set up a system that was so grind-heavy that players broke server rules and wrote automated scripts to grind for them, and other players gave them money to do that. Because the minute-to-minute gameplay of…

> is it good that a game is so boring that players are willing to pay real-world money to skip parts of it?

The difference between now and then is that people had to go to third parties; nowadays the game developer themselves will sell you the skip. Or a chance to gamble at a boost.

Some of these mechanics are "compelling", in a very visceral sense - they compel people to spend time or money, in a way that isn't quite describable as fun. And yet creating an obsession and a goal and providing a way to grind or spend to that goal is popular.

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