>> The purpose of DRM is to give content providers leverage against creators of playback devices. This is a good spot to place the pin. The "theological" view is that (1) copyright is a moral right. (2) The Law just protects right against wrong, and(3) economic side effects of laws are incidental. Real life is a lot less naive, so to speak. The commercial intellectual property concerns at stake are are record labels,…
The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)
221–230 of 276 posts
Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)
#222I worked in the online media space for a long time, and the fact of the matter is that DRM enabled the era of networks putting their content online, it enabled Netflix, etc. - DRM was the only way to get past the liability gridlock between content owners and distributors. Also, in practice DRM is bad for users only when its presence causes friction in the legitimate viewing process. It has a bad rap because, historic…
This requires something track me each time I listen to something. Why should the creator, or an agent of the creator of that work get that power over me?
Traditional economics don't require this tracking. E.g. I buy a car off of a car lot--the car lot doesn't need to know where and when I'm using the car.
IMHO royalty is a concept that is a burden on society and the legal system when we live in an age where it is so easy to create certain types of works - never in any point in society have there been so many writings, songs, artworks, games/software, and motion pictures produced. For copyright to really work as it's intended, all avenues of human communication need to be MITMed and massive data stores tracking everything any human being creates need to be maintained. Various cartels actively work for this.
Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Every garage band in existence would also exist without copyright I think you are under-estimating the extent to which these people are seeking to "make it" and become profitable later. There are also lots of SV start-ups that never make any money, yet it doesn't prove that they would still exist if NONE of them EVER made any money.
I don't believe the assertion that no one would make money with creative works without copyright.
Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)
#224Earlier quoted context omitted.
I try to be the Devil's advocate. The scarse resource is not that song or that movie. It's the time of the people that created that song and that movie. That's is part of the cost of production. This is similar to there are millions of houses but only a few in the most scenic places. Want one of them, pay more. It could be the same for the most popular songs and movies. The time of their creators is more valuable tha…
> The scarse resource is not that song or that movie. It's the time of the people that created that song and that movie. That's is part of the cost of production. That's not really valid, though. Time is not the thing being exchanged -- it's impossible to do that -- so isn't a resource, scarce or otherwise, in the sense we mean. On top of that, the previous commenter made an error -- property rights aren't a solution…
Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
At least according to their own accounting, movies lose otherwise hilarious amounts of money all the time and they seem to still exist somehow. "Piracy", which in reality is probably better called "online jaywalking" as it, too, is a made up faux-pas created so as to allow a couple soulless drones to make more money, hasn't to date represented an obstacle to content creation, they still happily churn products all the…
Easily duplicable cultural products? You’re suggesting that you should be able to take something someone else made because it’s easy to do? It would be easy to steal your computer from you — should that make it legal for me to do so? You think movies should become historic cultural relics with free access to all whenever they are popular? If your wish came true, how exactly would the movie’s creation get funded in th…
No, I'm not. What's more, that's an easily disprovable lie: My duplicating of a file does not somehow delete the original. My downloading of this page hasn't done anything to your post.
> Movies often costs tens to hundreds of millions to produce, and they only take on that level of risk because of the financial return of people who pay to watch them.
Financial return that, according to themselves, is at best terrible? And that you, too, keep mentioning, despite loudly proclaiming they are of noone's interest?
> Do you have a job? Do you work for a company that makes money? Would you be okay with the product you’re working on being taken for free by people who insist they shouldn’t have to pay for it?
My job does not rely on handing copies of our product's binaries to people if they pinky promise they'll only use it in a way we approve of though. And if we, too rented garbled copies of it with time-limited access to the ungarbling machinery, we probably should disclose that beforehand so that prospective customers don't end up feeling like they've been defrauded.
> you’re also ignoring all smaller businesses that aren’t making enormous profits but can’t afford to give away their content for free
I'm not asking anyone to give anything away for free. And in any case the fact that the gatekeeping-culture-industrial-complex also exploits other smaller creators could easily also be considered problematic in and by itself.
> The amount of money someone makes is not any of your business
Oh but it is, specifically when they make it into a battle cry to invade my privacy and impede my agency in a deeply dumb search of unapproved copies of whatever they feel like claiming to own.
Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not really. The speed bumps affect everyone, but it's enough that one person or group cracks the DRM and makes the result available for everyone.
It doesn’t have to be much friction to have an impact. People take the path of least resistance.
Perhaps though the real friction is not exactly technical but that the piracy sites don't have the same attention-capturing "feed" or recommendation mechanisms set up. Just the friction of having to make choices.
Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)
#227I worked in the online media space for a long time, and the fact of the matter is that DRM enabled the era of networks putting their content online, it enabled Netflix, etc. - DRM was the only way to get past the liability gridlock between content owners and distributors. Also, in practice DRM is bad for users only when its presence causes friction in the legitimate viewing process. It has a bad rap because, historic…
> If we could start from scratch, what might work is a purely use-based model, where e.g. every time you listen to a song, you pay a tiny, tiny fee for it. This requires something track me each time I listen to something. Why should the creator, or an agent of the creator of that work get that power over me? Traditional economics don't require this tracking. E.g. I buy a car off of a car lot--the car lot doesn't need…
Well, you have no inherent right to the creator's work at all, so consider it one of the terms of the agreement in which you get access to the content and the creator gets some form of compensation.
But just to reiterate, this is how it would work under a use-based model. If you have something better to suggest, then by all means do, because I don't think we've uncovered the best solution yet. The comments about copyright require, as you noted, tracking too, but copyright itself only covers part of the problem, and that is not destroying the incentive to create and innovate in the first place (see below).
> Traditional economics don't require this tracking. E.g. I buy a car off of a car lot--the car lot doesn't need to know where and when I'm using the car.
Right, but traditional economic models also don't know how to deal with a situation in which you can buy a car, never have it wear out, and create an infinite number of exact duplicates for free that you could keep for yourself or turn around and sell to anyone else, which is basically the situation we have with digital works.
Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The people who made the disks got paid, too. Interesting point. Did the people who made the content get paid too? And is the value of the DVD in the physical object or the content?
> Did the people who made the content get paid too? Usually yes, because those would be the actors/cameramen/directors/editors/etc who would be paid for their work before the finished work then would be sold on to consumers. The question here is really "Did the people who fronted the money for the content get paid?" For simplicity I'm ignoring royalties here. > And is the value of the DVD in the physical object or th…
I admire your intellectual honesty about admitting that royalties exist. Anyway, the question here is where did the money for up-front salaries come from and does does it keep coming when the if the publisher's profits are reduced?
I have participated in a few crowdfunding campaigns and I agree that it could work for a specific niche: where the content creators are already well known enough that they can attract a sufficient audience that trusts them to do something sensible with their money. It's going to be hard for newcomers. Just look at failed kickstarters: there is a lot of trash there but there could be some unpolished gems there.
> Rights management would have actually been counterproductive because the point of the art was the aggrandizement of the patron.
This is kind of the point. If I have to choose blindly between a show that's made because Jeff Bezos wants to fund it and meddles with it personally or a show that Jeff's firm funds because some professionals believe it's going to attract paying viewers, my bet is on the latter.
Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)
#229>> The purpose of DRM is to give content providers leverage against creators of playback devices. This is a good spot to place the pin. The "theological" view is that (1) copyright is a moral right. (2) The Law just protects right against wrong, and(3) economic side effects of laws are incidental. Real life is a lot less naive, so to speak. The commercial intellectual property concerns at stake are are record labels,…
>> The purpose of DRM is to give content providers leverage against creators of playback devices. I think it's noteworthy that game consoles do this in the opposite direction: give creators of playback devices leverage over content providers. This was basically why console DRM evolved in the first place (in the early forms of the 10NES lockout chip and the Atari 7800 signature scheme). Accordingly, console DRM scheme…
So, just as an example... let's talk about the last major physical media format war: HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. The thing that killed HD-DVD was that Blu-Ray had better DRM. Switching between the two formats was as simple as copying a file from one encoder to another; so the movie studios picked the one that gave them the most control.
Switching between game consoles is like telling the director of a movie to change from shooting in 16:9 to 21:9. It's possible, but you're going to be spending a lot of extra time and effort to switch aspect ratios. Now, granted, people have gotten really good at porting games to new systems, but it still requires time and effort to do, especially when it comes to testing and certification.
A game developer porting a game to a system is, ultimately, a vote of confidence that the system will have a viable commercial software market 1-2 years down the line. Developers are at the mercy of console manufacturers, and thus they're very conservative with what platforms to develop on. So companies trying to enter the console business basically need to do half a decade's worth of business development and funding just to get a foot in the door. Which makes the few platforms that are successful that much more powerful.
Another interesting quirk of the games industry is that consoles are often manufactured by companies that also fund or develop games, and those companies specifically withhold their games from other platforms to make their own consoles better. There's no need for Nintendo to demand that they pay themselves a 30% platform royalty to publish games on their own platform; and they aren't going to start paying Sony 30% so that people can buy Mario on PlayStation.
Very, very early on in the history of American cinema, the US government made an antitrust case against movie studios that more or less banned them from owning the theaters that displayed their content. Since then, it's been the case that production and distribution were two separate specialties, with copyright law existing to ensure the latter can't screw over the former. Hence where we get "DRM exists to control player manufacturers". Games came along much later and their business models more or less never attracted antitrust scrutiny[0] until very recently when Epic decided to make a federal lawsuit out of it.
My gut feeling is that it doesn't actually make a whole lot of business sense as a publisher or developer to outsource distribution to a third party. That's why you've seen Netflix go from "everything streaming instantly for cheap" to original productions; and why every other publisher made their own streaming platform to cut out the Netflix middleman. The only remaining link in the chain from publishers to you are device manufacturers: Apple, Google, Samsung, Roku, etc. This business looks a lot more like game consoles than player manufacturing, which shifts the balance of market power to the companies making the players.
[0] Yes, the FTC sued Nintendo but that was more about the price of games and consoles, not the software lockout that prohibited you from otherwise lawfully making and selling your own Nintendo cartridges.
Re: The purpose of DRM is not to prevent copyright violations (2013)
#230Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn’t have to be much friction to have an impact. People take the path of least resistance.
But it does, because of the effect just mentioned. 99.999% of people can take the path of least resistance while the 1 in 100,000 exception bears all of the friction for all of them. Perhaps though the real friction is not exactly technical but that the piracy sites don't have the same attention-capturing "feed" or recommendation mechanisms set up. Just the friction of having to make choices.