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Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

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Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#181

I (before COVID…) travel somewhat regularly and have a collection of SIM cards from my most frequently travelled destinations making just arriving and going about my life a nice straightforward process. I haven’t seen anything to indicate eSIMs have anything close to this experience and I feel like losing the option to do so for some perceived modernness is a bit disappointing.

So your argument against eSIMs is that it'd interfere with your niche hobby of international sim card collecting?

I don't think it's a niche hobby (though I could be wrong as I have no data on it, just some thoughts). Any person that travels frequently has at least entertained the thought of buying a local SIM. Many people have actually done so.

For example, I went to Sweden for a month, and in those days calling in the EU wasn't a thing. I bought a Swedish SIM for if I'd meet people there (and I did). 10 years later, I traveled in Thailand for a month and I wanted internet. I bought a Thai SIM got internet for like, 10 euro's? And that was that. The fact that Apple disallows me this freedom means I will have to switch once the Covid issues start to become less of a thing.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#182

Can anyone discuss the privacy implications here please? I assume to use eSim you'll be required to have a working internet connection - there are still many dark spots in the world. What data does eSim need? Can anyone outline the data structures being sent from my device? It's still possible to access the network pesudo-anonomously with a physical sim, I can only assume a "selfie to activate eSim" is going to happe…

You only need an internet connection the moment you're activating the eSIM for the cryptographic keys to be downloaded. From that moment forward it acts just like a regular SIM card.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#183
post #66

I am very worried about this. While I love (and sometimes use) eSIMs, the physical SIM has a huge advantage in that it gives me freedom. It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point, as pretty much nobody uses a phone as "just a phone", you need to have an account wi…

In EU, an eSIM gives you the same "rights" as a physical SIM. The biggest difference is that a physical SIM gives you a slightly higher level of security, at least in theory (then, phone carriers do a lot to screw this up anyway).

> eSIM gives you the same "rights" as a physical SIM.

What does this mean in practice though? Some carriers already charge to reissue an eSIM.

With a physical SIM you can use the same one until you break it. An eSIM is "consumed" when it is provisioned into a phone and you need the carrier's cooperation to get a new one which gives them the option to charge or just be assholes in general.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#184
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s still IMEI locks. A lot of prepaid carriers in Europe won’t or can’t sell you a SIM card for a US phone (one man claimed it was due to carriers trying to reduce phone theft). Note, my phone was fully paid for, and therefor unlocked.

With my Samsung Android phone I had to call my carrier's customer support and obtain the unlock code from them. So it wasn't unlocked automatically after it was fully paid for. When I traveled to Europe I just bought a local carrier SIM from a vending machine at the airport.

Automatic unlocks is mostly an iPhone thing. iOS manages SIM locks differently (in fact on modern devices the modem itself isn't even locked, instead it's all done at the OS-level; Apple has a mapping of serial number to authorized carrier(s), to which the carriers can request changes remotely without having to provide an unlock code or requiring any user action).

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your argument against eSIMs is that it'd interfere with your niche hobby of international sim card collecting?

I don't think it's a niche hobby (though I could be wrong as I have no data on it, just some thoughts). Any person that travels frequently has at least entertained the thought of buying a local SIM. Many people have actually done so. For example, I went to Sweden for a month, and in those days calling in the EU wasn't a thing. I bought a Swedish SIM for if I'd meet people there (and I did). 10 years later, I traveled…

Isn't it just a different freedom?

Just looking at Thailand, I see many prepaid esim providers: https://esimdb.com/thailand

Also (I don't know anything about Thailand, just just some quick searching), it seems at least the largest provider in Thailand has essentially the same service: https://www.ais.th/esim/en/ where you can buy the eSim either online or in a shop.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#186
post #91

People are saying this is bad because you won't be able to swap phones without relying on the carrier to provision a new eSIM for you. I have the same gut reaction, but with my current physical SIM, I have to install the carrier's app, and there are many phones which don't work with my carrier, despite being unlocked phones and unlocked SIMs. And let's not forget that locking phones and SIMs has been common practice…

I have literally never had to worry about my phone not taking the SIM out of the box. Put the SIM in, maybe reboot, and I'm off to the races. Is this a USA carrier thing??

Not with any carrier I've ever used in the US. Maybe it's a Canada thing.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#188
post #66

I am very worried about this. While I love (and sometimes use) eSIMs, the physical SIM has a huge advantage in that it gives me freedom. It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point, as pretty much nobody uses a phone as "just a phone", you need to have an account wi…

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT212780:

Transfer an eSIM from your previous iPhone

To transfer an eSIM to your new iPhone, you can scan the QR code your network provider gave you, use your network provider's iPhone app or install an assigned mobile data plan. When your mobile data plan is activated on your new iPhone, the plan on your previous iPhone will deactivate.

There’s also https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT210655: Find out how to transfer an eSIM or physical SIM from your previous iPhone to an eSIM on your new iPhone. You can also convert your physical SIM to an eSIM on your iPhone.

I think phones still can be SIM-locked, but AFAIK nothing changes there with eSIMs.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those SIM engineers should build other unhackable systems too! They did - see EMV payment cards for example. > it simply means that it's useless for security. It's not - SIMs close one attack vector where credentials can't be stolen by malware/bruteforced. Current SIM-swap attacks don't scale well; imagine how worse the problem would be if any Android malware could silently take over your number even after you've w…

> They did - see EMV payment cards for example. To drive the point home - this is a SIM card: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Thuraya_... (although you can remove the mini-sim in this revision, originally they were exactly like modern EMV cards). Again, if you're skeptical of the government itself and allowing them to tap your communication lines, then I understand your hesitation here (although 2…

> probably because there's a waiting period (usually 48 hours) enforced where the current holder of the SIM card gets warnings about the impeding deactivation in other countries

Not sure what's going on in other countries, but back when I was a phone store monkey in the UK this was not the case. A SIM swap could be done immediately and the previous SIM doesn't get any notification. If I remember right we needed to check ID, but we had no way nor proper training to tell a potential fake ID, nor what counts as an acceptable ID (the UK doesn't have mandatory ID cards, so a lot of people don't have ID) - I would defer to my manager in this case but I'm pretty sure the whole process was really at their discretion and whether the whole thing "feels" legit. Making it look like we'd get a sale is an easy way to sway the odds in your favour (we'd need to access the account anyway to make the sale, so you can play along and buy a new plan, and once we pulled up the account you can mention "oh BTW I need a new SIM" and we would oblige).

Fun fact: to access someone's account in-store we had to either text them a code and enter it in the web UI (good!) or provide knowledge-based answers such as amount of last bill, some digits of the ID/driver's license number or a security question answer. There was bruteforce protection, but here's the fun part - it was presumably implemented on the frontend only because you could reload the page on the last attempt and reset the counter of attempts! There were no consequences that I know of (neither from the company nor a notification/follow-up with the customer) to locking out an account either.

At least part of the system was Java-based (it blew up occasionally displaying a full stack trace full of PII) and was available over the Internet (there was a site-to-site VPN for the store, but the URL nevertheless loaded on a standard internet connection when I tried it probably due to misconfiguration, so it's very likely all of that was exposed during the Apache Struts or Log4J vulnerabilities).

I think the reason SIM Swap fraud isn't as common in the UK is either because getting the money out is more difficult or because other scams (authorized push payment fraud, scammers pretending to be tech support or tax authorities, etc) are just more profitable.

Re: Apple said to be preparing for iPhones without SIM card slot in 2022

#190
post #66

I am very worried about this. While I love (and sometimes use) eSIMs, the physical SIM has a huge advantage in that it gives me freedom. It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point, as pretty much nobody uses a phone as "just a phone", you need to have an account wi…

Oh you think the cookie bs right now is bad for your privacy, can't wait for this eSIM shit show to come to light in a few year, it will be absolute privacy nightmare.
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