Systemd 250 Released • Hacker News Board

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#201

Post by badsectoracula » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 1:08 AM UTC

1_player wrote: post #160

captainmuon wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"linux" (as in: Unixoid distributions for desktop systems) has always been about choice. Debian's update-alternatives, the whole FreeDesktop project, ICCCM standards. The theming community, gnome-look.org, kde-look.org, and so on. If I want the stabilty and flexibility of Linux (the kernel) and the GNU command line tools, and the flexibility to choose a UX paradigm that I prefer and visuals that I like, I go to deskt…

> "linux" (as in: Unixoid distributions for desktop systems) has always been about choice. Again, no. You call it choice, I call it chaos, it was anarchy, and that's the default state for any loosely-coupled systems. There is no manifesto, no underlying philosophy that decided that yes, Linux is about choice. Don't conflate lack of organisation with choice. Linux has always been about creating a libre UNIX-like kerne…

> I still don't understand why people keep harping on about choice.

Because they don't want the choices other people made for them.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#202

Post by _2paq » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 11:47 AM UTC

1_player wrote: post #116

captainmuon wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systemd by itself is alright, the problem for me is the larger movement from "Linux is about choice" to tightly integrated, opinionated tools. Examples: - Gnome started to depend on systemd features. Now non-systemd systems become second class citizens. - You used to be able to freely swap out window managers, taskbars, and so on, because everything was working with common standards. In the modern world, everything i…

Linux has never been about choice. There was choice because no two people could agree on a set of protocols and standards. And slowly we're converging on a small set of decent (not perfect!) ideas volunteers can focus their efforts on. I honestly hope the choice meme dies because it is so toxic. My Linux workstation and servers are not something I want to tinker with, I want solidity and stability and a fragmented us…

> Linux has never been about choice. There was choice because no two people could agree on a set of protocols and standards. And slowly we're converging on a small set of decent (not perfect!) ideas volunteers can focus their efforts on. I honestly hope the choice meme dies because it is so toxic.

So everyone who uses or develops alternative init systems like runit and openrc and alternative DEs like KDE and package managers like apk and pacman should just stop and work on and use systemd, GNOME, and flatpak instead because that is the One True Way of using Linux on desktop?

Quite a power trip attitude I'd say. I can't imagine why I would use Linux if choices I don't agree with were shoved down my throat.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#203

Post by esarbe » Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 12:14 PM UTC

p_l wrote: post #200

esarbe wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It might be because people did report on in trying to run GNOME 3.8 without logind, and reported massive faults? If you by 'it' mean the fact that the distributions switched to systemd, I would be declined to discount the speculation that 'it was because people did report in trying to run GNOME 3.8 without logind [...]'. Do you honestly think that Fedora, Arch or any of the other distributions would not try to eval…

Fedora and Arch are literally the early adopters of systemd, long before GNOME 3.8. GNOME 3.8 made hard dependencies on logind because it was default in Fedora - Arch similarly was working full tilt on implementing all proposed things from systemd long before GNOME 3.8 release (I know, I had lost my only on-hand system due to one of those changes applying badly and making it unbootable) As for supporting configuratio…

> GNOME 3.8 made hard dependencies on logind because it was default in Fedora

Looks like we're still in disagreement about this. As far as I can tell, there was never a 'hard' dependency of GNOME 3.8 on logind; logind was an optional dependency[0].

> beyond functionality that can be summarised as "SysV initd plus dependencies"

I would attribute that to the lack of similar "service manager" functionality in other "boot managers". That comes down to the hesitancy of these "boot managers" to embrace the role of "service managers". There's tons of functionality that the systemd project (not necessarily the pid0 binary) introduced to make services run consistently and reliably. They paved the way in that regard and we're still waiting for contenders to catch up.

[0] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2013-Marc...

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#204

Post by sgaduuw » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 5:34 PM UTC

iio7 wrote: post #177

sgaduuw wrote: post #68

I recently switched from Ubuntu to FreeBSD, and systemd-networkd is what I miss the most. Network settings in /etc/rc.conf totally feel like a bandaid on a bandaid on a bandaid.

What you need is dhcpcd. I use dhcpcd on Linux as well, rather than systemd-networkd. It's better and doesn't come with any hardcode Google or Cloudflare DNS servers as systemd-networkd does.

I don't think dhcpcd will create and configure VLANs and WireGuard VPNs for me