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Are jobs obsolete?

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Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#181

Post by Retric »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #166

Pulling out a specific nit: "America is productive enough that it could probably shelter, feed, educate, and even provide health care for its entire population with just a fraction of us actually working." And from an old college textbook on the definition of economics - Economics is the study of how society manages its scarce resources. Here it the hard nut in the thesis, what mechanism, process, or theory, could ma…

A major nitpick as a middle American a disproportionate percentage of MY salary is used to support the poor relative to rich people. The vast majority of wealth redistribution in this country is though SS which the wealthy get to opt out from. When you consider that I pay more in SS as a percentage of my income than Warren Buffet's entire tax bill there is something wrong with this picture. (In theory I might see some of that money back but even I nothing changes and I live to see 120 I would still be far worse off with SS than without.)

PS: Some people think of corporate taxes as double taxation on the wealthy but nothing in the US tax code says you need to invest in US companies and if you actually look at taxes paid by large companies it's vary low relative to the stated tax rate.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#182

Post by jaredmck »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #172
jbooth wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It precisely explains why we're spending more and more and getting less and less. Compound 15% out over 15 years. Educational reform is a broad subject and there's lots of room for experimentation. I'm fine with properly implemented charter schools, especially for the "thousand laboratories" effect. I don't think that chanting "markets" like a religious incantation is particularly effective. But most importantly, don…

It precisely explains why we're spending more and more and getting less and less. No. Healthcare costs are up for everyone, everywhere, in every industry. The same increases that education has to pay for, every other employer does as well. If other industries are not spending 15% compounded, and delivering less, then why is it happening in education?

Except teachers unions negotiate their benefits and labor contracts, and they tend to be tilted towards the interests of those with more tenure, which is not really how private enterprise operates. Also, outsourcing allowed many companies to not face 15% increases overall in health care costs as they scaled back US jobs to counter.

Also, in many states teachers receive retiree health benefits, which were not funded by setting aside money during these teachers' working years- very few private industries still have these (extremely expensive, especially if you retire pre-65/Medicare) benefits, but education does and this stuff is going to be a budgetary minefield for the foreseeable future.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#183

Post by Riesling »

serge2k wrote: post #41
mayutana wrote: post #22

A similar model is being followed in Europe where the unemployed, disabled, recent mothers and the poorer people are provided some sort of basic support by the state. The higher earning people have extra cash to live more comfortably.

Unfortunately you have to support not only people who are just going through some tough times, but those who just want to leech off society. Plus those people who go out and have kids, then waste the money they are given to feed them on crap so their child is either starving or lives off a terrible diet. It's really not an easy problem to solve. Ideally everyone should be guaranteed that they get enough food and a pl…

I think this is an irrational fear. I don't think that leeching lies in human nature. People naturally want to take part in society as long as they are healthy. Just think about what you would do if you wouldn't have to work. Would you stay in bed all day? I would most certainly write programs to help other people, just as I do now.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#185

Post by z0r »

ryandvm wrote: post #29

It's a fact that computers/automation are going to continue to obsolete human jobs. Nothing short of a technological apocalypse is going to reverse that. And I agree that we shouldn't really lament the reality that a trucker who used to spend 50 hours a week vacuously staring at the highway no longer has to do that. But that's a triumph. One more human mind freed up for greater accomplishments. That said, I'm dubious…

The surplus labor army is useful for driving down the wages of the employed, to increase the profits of the employers. Why pay 3/4 of the population to work 40 hours a week when you can pay 3/4 of the population to work 40 hours for what they used to be paid for 39 hours, holding the threat of the competing jobless 1/4 against them? This is grossly simplified, of course, but why would any company try to optimize for the benefit of society over their own?

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#186

Post by brown9-2 »

johngalt wrote: post #111
tjstankus wrote: post #12

The opposite, libertarian answer (and the way we seem to be going right now) would be to let those who can't capitalize on the bounty simply suffer. Cut social services along with their jobs, and hope they fade into the distance. Reminds me of this quote from Jello Biafra: Some day, even the experts will figure out, that crime is not caused by rap music...or even my music, but by a power structure of self-absorbed pr…

We spend more per student than we ever have in history. Why wasn't the country in chaos when there weren't public schools at all? Teaching the kids that they are owed something merely because they have less than someone else? Seems to justify theft to me.

Why wasn't the country in chaos when there weren't public schools at all?

Because education isn't a cure-all and isn't the only variable in the lives of the youth.

Teaching the kids that they are owed something merely because they have less than someone else?

I'm sorry, but where do you get this sentiment from the previous posts?

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#187

Post by jquery »

tjstankus wrote: post #12

The opposite, libertarian answer (and the way we seem to be going right now) would be to let those who can't capitalize on the bounty simply suffer. Cut social services along with their jobs, and hope they fade into the distance. Reminds me of this quote from Jello Biafra: Some day, even the experts will figure out, that crime is not caused by rap music...or even my music, but by a power structure of self-absorbed pr…

> The opposite, libertarian answer (and the way we seem to be going right now) would be to let those who can't capitalize on the bounty simply suffer. Cut social services along with their jobs, and hope they fade into the distance.

This is a gross mischaracterization of the libertarian answer. But it's easier to make powerful-sounding arguments when you first set up strawmen to burn.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#188

Post by Domenic_S »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #122
CWuestefeld wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

those with wealth, are too greedy to allow their wealth to be taxed for social services such as better schools My property tax bills beg to disagree with you. For the 16 years I've owned my house, I've watched the portion of my taxes that go to our schools go up far faster than the rate of inflation. If there's a problem with education, it is absolutely NOT that there is insufficient money being invested into it. Thi…

Of course, the quote is not referring to any particular person. The rest of your points are tangential to the quote, but I'll address them anyways. Claiming lack of funds is not an issue is misguided. The problem with property-taxes-fund-education is that in poor areas, the funds derived from property taxes are much much lower than in a more well off area. These are the areas that require even greater investment to c…

> The problem with property-taxes-fund-education is that in poor areas, the funds derived from property taxes are much much lower than in a more well off area.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember busing [1]. I don't think you are, because if you were you'd know that your point isn't right.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desegregation_busing_in_the_Uni...

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#189

Post by Domenic_S »

Retric wrote: post #181
ChuckMcM wrote: post #166

Pulling out a specific nit: "America is productive enough that it could probably shelter, feed, educate, and even provide health care for its entire population with just a fraction of us actually working." And from an old college textbook on the definition of economics - Economics is the study of how society manages its scarce resources. Here it the hard nut in the thesis, what mechanism, process, or theory, could ma…

A major nitpick as a middle American a disproportionate percentage of MY salary is used to support the poor relative to rich people. The vast majority of wealth redistribution in this country is though SS which the wealthy get to opt out from. When you consider that I pay more in SS as a percentage of my income than Warren Buffet's entire tax bill there is something wrong with this picture. (In theory I might see som…

> a disproportionate percentage of MY salary is used to support the poor relative to rich people.

The operative word there is "salary". Buffet had such a low (as a %) tax bill because most of his income isn't salary but cap gains.

Let's raise cap gains tax to 50% you say? Sounds great until you sell your house in a few years.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#190

Post by protomyth »

ippisl wrote: post #117
chailatte wrote: post #36

My theory from before: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2906769 - In 20 years, 80% of the people in will be kept alive by welfare, supplemented by their hourly job. Enough to get a small apartment, utilities, cell phone, cheap but unhealthy food, and shopping at the dollar store. And free tv/movie/music/book/sports entertainment via the internet. - 15% will be the middlemen, extracting value from the others via se…

One thing that would really help such scenario become an affordable reality, is seeing the cost of living rapidly decline for people living with low wages. For them , the major living expenses are housing, healthcare, food and energy, and a car(when there's no decent public transportation). Those areas mostly doesn't see big cost reductions. Some of it is because high barriers to entry, regulation, dislike of low-end…

As hated as Wal-Mart is, they have cut the cost of living for people with low wages. The after effects are up for debate.
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