Are jobs obsolete? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#131

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:40 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #59

jswinghammer wrote: post #17

I'm not sure the Post Office's problems are related to technology. Their union negotiated a "no layoff" provision in their contract just this year. Why would you agree to that as an employer? Then there is the problem of defined benefit pensions where you end up keeping people basically on staff long after they stop working for you. The Post Office needs to go bankrupt and clear these contracts out and move forward w…

Every union "no layoff" provision I've ever seen was a case of the union choosing to forego contracted CoL raises and some various health benefits in exchange for keeping jobs. Typically it will be cost-neutral compared to layoffs and keeping benefits. The employer wouldn't sign up to it if it was a pure money loser. They're not crazy :) Also, Obama already suspended Saturday delivery. So not too sure what he has to…

[deleted]

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#132

Post by runjake » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:41 PM UTC

zasz wrote: post #129

I don't think anyone would want to pay for the art I can make. I don't want to pay for anyone else's either. Given how much music piracy there is, and the vast skill disparity between casual amateurs and dedicated professionals, and the near-zero cost of replicating the bits composed by someone better than me or any of my immediate peers, I can't believe the author thinks that trading bits is a possible outcome. Why…

To answer all your why's: sentimentalism, that's why. Learning or receiving from people you know is often more valuable, imho.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#133

Post by Vivtek » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:41 PM UTC

Oh, for Christ's sake, does everything have to be the End of History nowadays?

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#134

Post by suivix » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:42 PM UTC

cwp wrote: post #91

jcromartie wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right: Technology doesn't kill jobs. It kills demand. Who wants to send paper mail, or a landline phone, or to take out traditional classified ads? The alternatives are too appealing and the demand for the old versions is never coming back.

Ugh. No. The financial crisis killed demand.

Why did the horse and buggy go away? Lack of demand, I'd say.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#135

Post by hackinthebochs » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:43 PM UTC

pemulis wrote: post #100

colanderman wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought that a 30 hr work week should be regulated, forcing employees to demand higher wages in order to survive, forcing employers to raise wages, and forcing CEOs to be paid less , thus reducing the income gap.

If that sort of thing was effective, income inequality would have dropped over the past 60 years as government regulations raised the minimum wage and shortened the work week. Instead, it dramatically increased. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Income_Distr...

The problem is that minimum wage has never overtaken inflation. So in fact the minimum wage has effectively fallen over the last 60 years. Plus, the gains in production due to automation has worked to concentrate wealth at the top. The point is we can't say regulation wouldn't be effective considering trends of income distribution.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#136

Post by jerf » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:45 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #127

johngalt wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We spend more per student than we ever have in history. Why wasn't the country in chaos when there weren't public schools at all? Teaching the kids that they are owed something merely because they have less than someone else? Seems to justify theft to me.

Healthcare. It's a healthcare problem in education, healthcare costs are going up by 15% a year and that money isn't there. That's why you hear about teacher layoffs while your property taxes go up and think it's bullshit. And hang out in a ghetto sometime if you want to see what's teaching kids that crime is ok.

Healthcare may explain why we can't spend yet more than the more-we've-ever-spent-before we're currently spending, but it can't explain why we spend so much more and seem to be getting less and less.

Really, very few of the problems we're facing can be explained by not spending enough; rather more can be explained by spending too much with no regard for what we get for our money, then letting people say "well, we just need more money to solve that problem".

If only we used an economic system whereby we actually accepted and utilized feedback about how our money was being spent, instead of spending our time demonizing the very idea that one should be permitted to examine the question of what one is getting for one's taxes, and simply being told to shut up and fork more over. Alas.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#137

Post by dwiel » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:46 PM UTC

pemulis wrote: post #100

colanderman wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought that a 30 hr work week should be regulated, forcing employees to demand higher wages in order to survive, forcing employers to raise wages, and forcing CEOs to be paid less , thus reducing the income gap.

If that sort of thing was effective, income inequality would have dropped over the past 60 years as government regulations raised the minimum wage and shortened the work week. Instead, it dramatically increased. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Income_Distr...

I'm not 100% I agree with the grandparent, but how do you know that the income inequality would have been even worse without these regulations?

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#138

Post by jcarden » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:47 PM UTC

ippisl wrote: post #49

ryandvm wrote: post #29

It's a fact that computers/automation are going to continue to obsolete human jobs. Nothing short of a technological apocalypse is going to reverse that. And I agree that we shouldn't really lament the reality that a trucker who used to spend 50 hours a week vacuously staring at the highway no longer has to do that. But that's a triumph. One more human mind freed up for greater accomplishments. That said, I'm dubious…

Without some regulation , why would the work week become shorter ? for many people , working a 40 hour work week barely covers their expenses. why would they want to work less ?

The 40 hour work week barely covers their expenses because time is an arbitrary metric being used to derive some sort of implicit value on labor. The unit of measure needs to change.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#139

Post by dreamdu5t » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:48 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #122

CWuestefeld wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

those with wealth, are too greedy to allow their wealth to be taxed for social services such as better schools My property tax bills beg to disagree with you. For the 16 years I've owned my house, I've watched the portion of my taxes that go to our schools go up far faster than the rate of inflation. If there's a problem with education, it is absolutely NOT that there is insufficient money being invested into it. Thi…

Of course, the quote is not referring to any particular person. The rest of your points are tangential to the quote, but I'll address them anyways. Claiming lack of funds is not an issue is misguided. The problem with property-taxes-fund-education is that in poor areas, the funds derived from property taxes are much much lower than in a more well off area. These are the areas that require even greater investment to c…

That may be true, and I personally agree that property taxes shouldn't fund education in that manner.

However, that doesn't mean that the removal of private property will result in more education or more money for education. Jello's quote implies that the root cause of unemployment and undereducation is partly the system of private property. He is a self-professed anarchist, so I don't know why people are trying to convince me that I'm reading into his quote. He's incorrect about this, but people love "eat the rich" ideals too much to admit it.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#140

Post by jlarocco » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:50 PM UTC

commanda wrote: post #93

This article skips discussing one reason why jobs are in a sense ends to themselves: the feeling of being useful. Retired people often complain that they don't know what to do with themselves after leaving the workforce, so they go do things like volunteering. A friend of mine recently took 2 months off between jobs and nearing the end of that time, she started becoming very depressed and realized it was because she…

There may be something to that, but it's hardly a universal feeling.

I was laid off a few years ago and I took as much time off between jobs as I could afford. I got a bunch of hiking, biking and camping in; read a bunch; and generally had an excellent time. I only felt depressed when my savings started to get low and I knew I'd have to get a job.

Some people connect their self worth to working, and they feel worthless when they're not working. Some people don't, and they don't have that problem.