Are jobs obsolete? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#121

Post by zasz » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:37 PM UTC

commanda wrote: post #93

This article skips discussing one reason why jobs are in a sense ends to themselves: the feeling of being useful. Retired people often complain that they don't know what to do with themselves after leaving the workforce, so they go do things like volunteering. A friend of mine recently took 2 months off between jobs and nearing the end of that time, she started becoming very depressed and realized it was because she…

It might not be "feeling useful" so much as the social stimulation. The days when I work from home and don't talk to anyone at the office are soul-crushingly lonely, sometimes, even if I'm very active over IM.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#122

Post by hackinthebochs » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:37 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #99

hackinthebochs wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're reading that way too literally. The point is that the property owners, those with wealth, are too greedy to allow their wealth to be taxed for social services such as better schools and an improved prison system. It is this greed that comes back to bite them when those kids rob and kill them.

those with wealth, are too greedy to allow their wealth to be taxed for social services such as better schools My property tax bills beg to disagree with you. For the 16 years I've owned my house, I've watched the portion of my taxes that go to our schools go up far faster than the rate of inflation. If there's a problem with education, it is absolutely NOT that there is insufficient money being invested into it. Thi…

Of course, the quote is not referring to any particular person.

The rest of your points are tangential to the quote, but I'll address them anyways.

Claiming lack of funds is not an issue is misguided. The problem with property-taxes-fund-education is that in poor areas, the funds derived from property taxes are much much lower than in a more well off area. These are the areas that require even greater investment to counter the negative culture living in low income areas create. Class sizes, after school activities, sports, tutoring, etc are all factors that effect the outcome of a student; all of which are directly related to available funds.

I could just as easily say those that claim funding isn't the problem with education also have motives they're trying to hide.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#123

Post by CWuestefeld » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:38 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #104

dreamdu5t wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay... then what does the power structure of private property have to do with it? Unemployment is not necessitated by private property. Removing the power structure of property owners will not eliminate unemployment or cause people to become educated. This is what Jello implies, and it's naively incorrect. Come on, Jello openly professes these politics/ideas, I am not reading anything into the quote that isn't there…

[deleted]

Public schools in the USA are paid for by property taxes.

Yes, but the property owners don't get to decide how much they're going to pay. The citizenry at large either votes directly on a school budget referendum, or votes for representatives to decide the same. Either way, the decision on school funding is made by a much broader set of people than the property owners.

Indeed, I own a cabin in upstate New York, but I am not a resident there, and thus am not allowed to vote there. I am entirely at the mercy of others as to how much I much pay for the school taxes there, as I do not have even a whisper of a voice.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#124

Post by _delirium » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:38 PM UTC

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #63

njharman wrote: post #42

Most people work to get money to spend on stuff people are making. Full employment 40+ hours a week is obsolete. Consumerism is obsolete. We should all be working 10hrs/week or less and have/consume 1/10 to 1/4 of what we have/consume today. That's not gonna happen easily, but it's gonna happen . Perhaps not in my lifetime. I'm making guess that space exploitation will not ramp up in time, it might though.

Are you suggesting that 3/4th - 9/10th of spending is on luxury goods?

It really depends on what you consider a luxury good. For example, some amount of housing is a "necessity", some amount is "nice to have", and some is "luxury", but I doubt people agree on the boundaries. The bar of what people consider a necessity seems to rise with income, so people recategorize what they would've once seen as luxury as non-luxury.

I was recently adding up what it would take to live in a cheap-ish place like Pittsburgh: 1) frugally; and 2) modestly but comfortably; and the numbers are absurdly low if you really stick to necessities. YMMV elsewhere.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#125

Post by fauigerzigerk » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:38 PM UTC

jswinghammer wrote: post #17

I'm not sure the Post Office's problems are related to technology. Their union negotiated a "no layoff" provision in their contract just this year. Why would you agree to that as an employer? Then there is the problem of defined benefit pensions where you end up keeping people basically on staff long after they stop working for you. The Post Office needs to go bankrupt and clear these contracts out and move forward w…

So how much are you willing and able to pay for someone to take care of your sick relatives? I don't know about you, but often times there is a huge gap between need and demand caused by affordability. Maybe that's why those men are wandering around doing nothing, getting paid by people who have no need for them, instead of working for those who have a need but no funds to pay them.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#126

Post by olliesaunders » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:38 PM UTC

There’s a really good book on this topic called Creating You & Co.[1] that is all about how it’s not jobs that are important—that’s an overspecialization—but work. And work can be done in any number of ways: automation, out-sourcing, crowd-sourcing, etc. The book is quite old so it only really talks about alternative human-based work delivery but it’s still arguing for a new worldview on work and employment that is well ahead of its time.

I have to remind myself every time I watch the news—particularly those interviews with “experts”—that job losses aren’t quite the gloomy picture they seem to be. And the solution isn’t necessarily to manufacture more positions for people.

1: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creating-You-Co-Learn-Career/dp/0738...

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#127

Post by jbooth » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:38 PM UTC

johngalt wrote: post #111

tjstankus wrote: post #12

The opposite, libertarian answer (and the way we seem to be going right now) would be to let those who can't capitalize on the bounty simply suffer. Cut social services along with their jobs, and hope they fade into the distance. Reminds me of this quote from Jello Biafra: Some day, even the experts will figure out, that crime is not caused by rap music...or even my music, but by a power structure of self-absorbed pr…

We spend more per student than we ever have in history. Why wasn't the country in chaos when there weren't public schools at all? Teaching the kids that they are owed something merely because they have less than someone else? Seems to justify theft to me.

Healthcare. It's a healthcare problem in education, healthcare costs are going up by 15% a year and that money isn't there. That's why you hear about teacher layoffs while your property taxes go up and think it's bullshit.

And hang out in a ghetto sometime if you want to see what's teaching kids that crime is ok.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#128

Post by rflrob » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:38 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #107

entangld wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I have work I need done now that I just do not have time for. I also know finding someone to do that job for what I'm willing to pay is very hard since people seem to get by without working via means I do not fully understand. People don't just need any job they can get. They need a job that will pay bills for a reasonable amount of time in the future. They need to save money to live on during the next job search.…

This high granularity of employment sounds like a terrible inefficiency. There are jobs that need to be done, but can't be, because they don't justify a full-time or part-time employee. There are people that need to work, but can't because much of the work that needs to be done is in chunks too small to occupy their time. Perhaps we need something like an exchange for labor, like a stock exchange meets a temp agency.…

> Perhaps we need something like an exchange for labor, like a stock exchange meets a temp agency.

I think the problem here is that workers are even less fungible than corporate stocks. The process of separating out the chronically unemployed but capable from the chronically unemployed because of fundamental flaws is quite a job in and of itself.

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#129

Post by zasz » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:39 PM UTC

I don't think anyone would want to pay for the art I can make. I don't want to pay for anyone else's either. Given how much music piracy there is, and the vast skill disparity between casual amateurs and dedicated professionals, and the near-zero cost of replicating the bits composed by someone better than me or any of my immediate peers, I can't believe the author thinks that trading bits is a possible outcome. Why would I want my dad to educate me when I could watch OpenCourseware? Why would I want my friend's painting when I could get something much better over deviantArt? Why would I bother getting recipes from my mom if I can get them from a 4 star Michelin chef instead?

Re: Are jobs obsolete?

#130

Post by jbooth » Wed, Sep 07, 2011, 6:39 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #99

hackinthebochs wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're reading that way too literally. The point is that the property owners, those with wealth, are too greedy to allow their wealth to be taxed for social services such as better schools and an improved prison system. It is this greed that comes back to bite them when those kids rob and kill them.

those with wealth, are too greedy to allow their wealth to be taxed for social services such as better schools My property tax bills beg to disagree with you. For the 16 years I've owned my house, I've watched the portion of my taxes that go to our schools go up far faster than the rate of inflation. If there's a problem with education, it is absolutely NOT that there is insufficient money being invested into it. Thi…

Your property tax bills are paying for healthcare cost increases.

I'd be willing to bet that there have been layoffs and/or a hiring freeze in your district as well, right? That money isn't going to education, it's going into healthcare costs.