Once poor, always poor? • Hacker News Board

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#271

Post by SamPatt » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC

innocentoldguy wrote: post #130

duxup wrote: post #14

> Cultural norms can also encourage poverty cycles. I often wonder about these. Growing up I watched friends whose families had what you might describe as a cultural distrust of institutions, including schools, or even anyone who seemed to “think they’re better than us” (translation anyone who did well in school or a career). They constantly made self defeating choices and seemed destined to have the same problems/ p…

That was sort of my experience. I grew up in poverty and stayed in poverty until I was almost 25 years old because I didn't know any better. My parents didn't distrust institutions. Instead, they mocked things they couldn't afford, so I grew up thinking college was a "stupid waste of time and money" and unimportant. For me, the things that broke me out of my family's cycle of poverty were a public library, a love of…

Great story. Congrats on good choices.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#272

Post by WillPostForFood » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

MrsPeaches wrote: post #237

dijit wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a harder problem than just "Free Education". I grew up in the UK (in "deprived" areas, to a single parent with no income other than jobseekers allowance and some childcare from the state) and I can formerly attest that my "free education" was atrocious. I am not sure if there was a negative feedback loop involved: School funding was determined by efficacy. How do you measure efficacy of a school? Well, test r…

> But Homework is a necessary part of education. Is it though? Sounds like it was actually exclusionary in your case. I believe that Finland has no homework and yet has some of the highest PISA scores.

It is not true, there is homework. It is false information, likely spread from a Michael Moore documentary that made the exaggerated claim.

https://finland.fi/life-society/the-truth-about-finnish-scho...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Finland/comments/99l5ke/is_that_tru...

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#273

Post by notreallyserio » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #211

vbezhenar wrote: post #191

When I started to pile some cash, so many opportunities opened up to save more money. Like I've got a chance to buy a good car for a good price, but I need money right now. Or I can buy plenty of food at once with a good discount, but I need to have enough money and enough refrigerator space to store it. Poor people who don't have a house, must spend tremendous money to rent it. I'm spending like $20/month to pay for…

> I'm spending like $20/month to pay for house that I own. Even assuming you own the house outright (which is not true for most people that have bought a house less than 30 years ago), that number seems ridiculously low. In every place I've lived, the land taxes alone are an order of magnitude higher than that. And then maintenance for the house is on top of that (something that people renting don't pay directly). I…

I'm assuming they're accounting for regular increases in home value, but who knows. It was deliberately vague to try to draw out questions, IMO.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#274

Post by RickJWagner » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

Once poor, probably poor-- unless financial education is available.

At least in growing economies, living below your means for a few decades coupled with investing will result in wealth accumulation.

It's not easy. It's not fun. But it's definitely possible.

Also, on the world stage poverty has been decreasing for decades. It's slowed lately, which should be of concern, but it's wonderful that it still is decreasing.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#275

Post by jokoon » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 3:57 PM UTC

throwaway55421 wrote: post #176

jokoon wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people, particularly in the west, believe that merit can be acquired, "just do it", "self made man", free will etc. Liberal economics are surrounded with those kinds of ideals that always explain that the poor deserve their status, that they only have themselves to blame.

The statements are not symmetrical, though. Let's use the less emotionally charged example of the gym rat. An individual who sets out with the goal and drive to become strong can be successful with high probability. But not everyone will do that. Most will give up or just not even bother in the first place.

It improves the probability, but it's not a requirement, and sometimes it doesn't increase the probability at all.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#276

Post by lucian1900 » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 3:57 PM UTC

ryan93 wrote: post #223

lucian1900 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is due to imposing “shock therapy” and neoliberalism on the populations of the defeated socialist countries as punishment. It has nothing to do with what girls are encouraged to do.

(guy who has read one book)

I’m glad the pillaging of my country is funny to you.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#277

Post by drdec » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

ivanmontillam wrote: post #49

krapp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ironically, societies that do not steer girls to parenthood are subject to extinction. Which societies have gone extinct due to this?

I've not seen societies going down for this, but it's easy to see a well-positioned families have one child and financially poor families have 5 or more children. Source: mere observation.

You should extrapolate that out a couple of hundred years and see what happens. Might make a good movie.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#278

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

mattchew wrote: post #266

lotsofpulp wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why do you need a college degree just to get a basic entry level job with a career path. The two options here are that either all the businesses using college degrees as a signal are wrong and they could be saving a lot of money by hiring non college educated applicants for slightly less pay and building them up. OR college education is a useful signal and so businesses are willing to pay a higher price for it. If…

A degree can be a valuable signal to employers and also be a terrible waste of time and resources. It can be both at once. It would be better if we found ways to let young people get into white collar and middle class professions without spending $100K and four years of their lives. This used to be possible. I'm quite sure it could be done again, but collectively we're not going to go there. Yet, anyway.

> A degree can be a valuable signal to employers and also be a terrible waste of time and resources. It can be both at once.

Sure, but it answers the question of why a degree is “needed”, and that is given the supply and demand curves for labor, the suppliers of labor need it to compete with each other.

> It would be better if we found ways to let young people get into white collar and middle class professions without spending $100K and four years of their lives.

Really simple, remove all taxpayer funded (including guaranteed) education loans, and any special bankruptcy protection they might have.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#279

Post by cloudedcordial » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 4:01 PM UTC

algo646464 wrote: post #102

duxup wrote: post #14

> Cultural norms can also encourage poverty cycles. I often wonder about these. Growing up I watched friends whose families had what you might describe as a cultural distrust of institutions, including schools, or even anyone who seemed to “think they’re better than us” (translation anyone who did well in school or a career). They constantly made self defeating choices and seemed destined to have the same problems/ p…

I sometimes think, one way to break this cycle is to send the all the kids to boarding school or military school. It could put them in an environment free from their background circumstances. It is of course a harsh thing to do, but I think maybe it could work.

One of the students from my high school, who was orphaned at 11, enrolled himself to the military university. At that school, he got free education, free uniform and free boarding. Every graduates must commit themselves to serve the military for a number of years. He possibly figured out that it's a good way to be independent, to get a quality education and to earn a decent living.

That school in my country has not been trivial to get accepted. He aimed for good grades at high school and participated in sports teams.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#280

Post by drunkpotato » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

vpilcx wrote: post #155

bko wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My main philosophical gripe is that it doesn't seem to really matter what your major is. Can't you just hack this by going to school for pretty much anything you're interested in and being able to work in an unrelated field? > my next gripe with it is the seemingly insurmountable debt that said education brings You've established that education is a good investment. So why not find an affordable college? It's not a…

> You've established that education is a good investment. My friend often comes to me and says, "Hey, man, how come you don't invest your money in ?" Because I'm living in poverty. People who live in poverty don't have money to invest. > So why not find an affordable college? So I did a quick calculation. Affordable, meaning junior college and public state college, would come out to roughly $23k for a bachelor. Maybe…

You get out of a college education what you put into it. I wouldn't recommend it just for a job, and the debt is an unfortunate modern heavy consideration to keep in mind. However, consider that it can be a force multiplier for your income for life, and give you the time/motivation to study things you may not otherwise come across, which can open you up to new opportunities and expand your network.

Also, people who come to college later in life tend to do better than average, because they want to be there, and have more maturity and discipline to do the work necessary.

I'm not saying college is the right choice for you, you do have important considerations that you're clearly weighing against each other. But, I am saying it may have more in the "pro" column than you credit it for, and there are also some non-loan subsidies that open up for students as well.

But yeah, student loans suck. A lot. For sure!