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Once poor, always poor?

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Re: Once poor, always poor?

#121

Post by vladvasiliu »

anovikov wrote: post #108
algo646464 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes think, one way to break this cycle is to send the all the kids to boarding school or military school. It could put them in an environment free from their background circumstances. It is of course a harsh thing to do, but I think maybe it could work.

I'm thinking of this and i can't see it working. All previous attempts were usually executed on racist grounds, and i don't think we can do the same on non-racist grounds because poverty itself is a result of either intrinsic differences between races, or racism itself, so racial layout of kids in those boarding schools will be similar to the racial layout in prisons... It's hard to expect anything but radicalisation…

GP did say "all the kids", so maybe they actually meant all the kids, as in rich, poor, in-between. So that it wouldn't be based on family income or school sector or what-have-you.

Of course, this could be construed as "discrimination" against the better off, since they have to go through what seems like a tough time "just because of the poor people".

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#122

Post by anovikov »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #121
anovikov wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm thinking of this and i can't see it working. All previous attempts were usually executed on racist grounds, and i don't think we can do the same on non-racist grounds because poverty itself is a result of either intrinsic differences between races, or racism itself, so racial layout of kids in those boarding schools will be similar to the racial layout in prisons... It's hard to expect anything but radicalisation…

GP did say "all the kids", so maybe they actually meant all the kids, as in rich, poor, in-between. So that it wouldn't be based on family income or school sector or what-have-you. Of course, this could be construed as "discrimination" against the better off, since they have to go through what seems like a tough time "just because of the poor people".

Oh well this is a terrible idea beyond imagination. Even just simply "solving" poverty by the means of good old segregation, delimiting poor places with barbed wire, sounds better to me.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#123

Post by saiya-jin »

fhe wrote: post #80
duxup wrote: post #14

> Cultural norms can also encourage poverty cycles. I often wonder about these. Growing up I watched friends whose families had what you might describe as a cultural distrust of institutions, including schools, or even anyone who seemed to “think they’re better than us” (translation anyone who did well in school or a career). They constantly made self defeating choices and seemed destined to have the same problems/ p…

Have you seen people manage to breakout from the poverty cycle? I have lived long enough to actually see a handful of people doing just that, and I often wondered what made them different. One trait I often observed is risk-taking. The ones that broke free from their upbringing always seemed to have high tolerance for risks. So maybe it's simply statistics -- if you have a group of people taking a lot of risks, some…

I can confirm this - I moved twice within Europe, once after a year of working (software dev), and then after 5 more years.

First time I went financially to 0 at the time first salary came, not a nice feeling. I don't have anybody rich in family, rather poor university educated parents (the beauty of communism and some time afterwards - when you are highly skilled engineer, hardworking and manage 200+ people you may get half the salary of some common agriculture worker or trench digger; or when being head of economic departments of 3 high schools combined you deserve even less). I had to adapt 'fuck it' mentality to make this step, otherwise the risks were too high. With kids for example this wouldn't be possible, parents generally move to very risk-averse mindset.

Second move didn't ruin me completely since I've saved up a little, but I had running mortgage which was eating my savings constantly. Plus I've moved to Switzerland and started looking for work - even when living on tuna cans and pasta in flatshare my expenses skyrocketed. Going through this for 2.5 months with very real option of failing and coming back and trying to not lose the mortgage takes some nerves. Again, 'fuck it' mentality helped, this time hardened with 6 months of backpacking in India and Nepal.

In both cases, I've had plenty of folks who were dissuading me from the moves (its hard to find job, more competition, foreign country and language etc. - all true at that time). None I know made similar move to mine. Many of those were talking about it, trying to find some super convenient way through it, asking me after move if I can find some work for them. When I explained to them its not an easy feat and they probably have to move beforehand they ignored the advice. Needless to say all remained where they live.

When comparing my first 100% software dev salary ever and the first after second move, my net income jumped 20x. I was extremely lucky when picking up my university studies to go for software development - it was not popular, we were unattractive geeks to girls, the salaries at least at home sucked and not too much work.

What I want to say with all this - its possible to move out of poverty, but one needs luck (at least with timing of actions), some tungsten balls help, and the less responsibility one has the easier the choices and hardships are. Generally its worth taking risks, but one has to know when to push hard and when rather accept losses and retreat.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#124

Post by wiseowise »

difosfor wrote: post #23

Given the generally accepted ideal of equality in the rich and educated world it strikes me as crazy that we continue to work hard to keep refugees out of our islands of wealth instead of structurally working on improving the chances of all people on earth. We seem to just turn a blind eye to this huge inequality or even increase and abuse it when it suits us. For example: Why don't we apply our minimum wage laws to…

> For example: Why don't we apply our minimum wage laws to the cheap foreign labor we depend on for our cheap products?

Because that would destroy any economy that exists there? What would be incentive to start a business when some rich multinational can pay 5x more than you?

> Why don't we spend a significant part of our riches on improving education across the world?

Because there are better wats to spend 'riches'?

> Why do we apparently feel that people who happen to be born somewhere else are inherently less valuable than us?

You answered yourself, because they were born somewhere else. They don't share our core values, language, culture. It doesn't mean that we should consider them beneath us. But they're different and that's a fact.

> We would all become richer from it together in the long run. But somehow even just thinking about something like this mostly just makes others laugh or at best uncomfortably chuckle at such a silly idealist.

Because those are laughable at best.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#125

Post by rsj_hn »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #121
anovikov wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm thinking of this and i can't see it working. All previous attempts were usually executed on racist grounds, and i don't think we can do the same on non-racist grounds because poverty itself is a result of either intrinsic differences between races, or racism itself, so racial layout of kids in those boarding schools will be similar to the racial layout in prisons... It's hard to expect anything but radicalisation…

GP did say "all the kids", so maybe they actually meant all the kids, as in rich, poor, in-between. So that it wouldn't be based on family income or school sector or what-have-you. Of course, this could be construed as "discrimination" against the better off, since they have to go through what seems like a tough time "just because of the poor people".

There is a long history of marxist groups trying to destroy the family by forcibly removing children and making them live in various communal camps. For example this was done in forced collectivization projects in the USSR and China, and also by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.

I really recommend watching the film "The Killing Fields", in order to see this in action.

Both the USSR and China ended up abandoning these efforts and now acknowledge them as terrible failures. The Khmer Rouge had to be forced out via military invasion.

Always the justification is the fact that smarter parents tend to have smarter kids, patient parents tend to have patient kids, etc. E.g. most things in life are at least half heritable, and so you will see both competency and dysfunction cluster in families. This offended the levelers greatly and so they decided that families need to be broken up and the kids randomized in order to achieve a Great Leveling.

The result has always been catastrophic, not to mention a gross human rights violation.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#126

Post by wiseowise »

Lich wrote: post #118
ivanmontillam wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to burst the bubble, but there's a reason why Elon Musk asked for a breakdown of costs for such a plan a few weeks ago. Throwing money at foundations doesn't automagically solves the problem. Sometimes it happens that if you donate clothes to some African communities, corruption will take over and your donation will not reach the hands of those in most need. The clothes will instead be sold into the illegal marke…

A breakdown was provided by the UN. He never responded.

Care to share a link?

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#127

Post by wiseowise »

diordiderot wrote: post #109
zhoujianfu wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I just read the chapter on open borders in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia_for_Realists and he argues none of that is true. Open borders (more immigrants) actually increases wealth of the country letting them in, even refugees…

And If you cut taxes workers will get paid more. At least that's what the books say.

Lol.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#128

Post by dragonwriter »

algo646464 wrote: post #102
duxup wrote: post #14

> Cultural norms can also encourage poverty cycles. I often wonder about these. Growing up I watched friends whose families had what you might describe as a cultural distrust of institutions, including schools, or even anyone who seemed to “think they’re better than us” (translation anyone who did well in school or a career). They constantly made self defeating choices and seemed destined to have the same problems/ p…

I sometimes think, one way to break this cycle is to send the all the kids to boarding school or military school. It could put them in an environment free from their background circumstances. It is of course a harsh thing to do, but I think maybe it could work.

> I sometimes think, one way to break this cycle is to send the all the kids to boarding school or military school.

This is a pretty standard solution by people working from abstractions that aren't checked against the realities of people.

It’s also a stunningly bad idea that tends not to survive past very initial steps toward implementation (on a general societal level; it has often been implemented in a more limited way targeted at disfavored minorities where it is a component of genocide by destroying the people as a people) in real societies, even when there is a powerful governing group devoted religiously to an ideology which embraces it.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#129

Post by Broken_Hippo »

algo646464 wrote: post #107
dustintrex wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Breaking the cycle by sending the kids away" has a long history of well-intentioned attempts nearly always leading to disastrous outcomes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sc... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55238090 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_children_by_Nazi...

That is a good point. But all these had racist reasons at their core. Can this be better implemented today? With extensive supervision and scrutiny. For example, teenagers routinely join the army, and spend time learning and training at what is essentially a boarding school. It seems to work quite well.

I'm not sure replacing racism with classism (oh, you are poor, you need to go away to school) is much better.

Extensive supervision and scrutiny? I mean, are we not doing some of this with public schools now? And if not, why not?

And seriously, we (in the US) allow lots of options for troubled kids without supervision ("work the bad out of you), we've allowed conversion therapy for LGBT+ children, have little oversight on for-profit schools and we allow folks to force their religion on their children, even if the 16- or 17-year-old doesn't believe.

I highly doubt there would be oversight.

I'd also like to point out that the Canadian schools were really, really recent, and I don't think much has changed since.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#130

Post by innocentoldguy »

duxup wrote: post #14

> Cultural norms can also encourage poverty cycles. I often wonder about these. Growing up I watched friends whose families had what you might describe as a cultural distrust of institutions, including schools, or even anyone who seemed to “think they’re better than us” (translation anyone who did well in school or a career). They constantly made self defeating choices and seemed destined to have the same problems/ p…

That was sort of my experience. I grew up in poverty and stayed in poverty until I was almost 25 years old because I didn't know any better. My parents didn't distrust institutions. Instead, they mocked things they couldn't afford, so I grew up thinking college was a "stupid waste of time and money" and unimportant.

For me, the things that broke me out of my family's cycle of poverty were a public library, a love of reading, and a determination to learn a valuable skill that people would be willing to pay me for.

I read everything from medical journals to books on auto mechanics to baking. I was willing to do anything to make more than the $5.85 an hour I was, at the time, raising my family on. Eventually, I picked up a copy of "Sam's Teach Yourself C Programming," which was weird, since I didn't know what C was and didn't own a computer. But, for some reason, the book clicked. I kept reading and studying programming books from the library and eventually got my first programming job with Intel. In my case, the public library was the key to breaking the poverty cycle, not just for me, but for my children as well.

I eventually got a college degree in my early 40s and graduated with a 4.0 GPA. I don't think I could have done that in my 20s though, due to the way I was raised. I had to get there via another route; the public library.

Because of the benefit they've been to my life, I love public libraries and recommend them to anybody wanting to improve their current situation. I'm sure there are other resources available too. That's just the one that worked for me.

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