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Once poor, always poor?

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Re: Once poor, always poor?

#91

Post by tonyedgecombe »

ivanmontillam wrote: post #30
difosfor wrote: post #23

Given the generally accepted ideal of equality in the rich and educated world it strikes me as crazy that we continue to work hard to keep refugees out of our islands of wealth instead of structurally working on improving the chances of all people on earth. We seem to just turn a blind eye to this huge inequality or even increase and abuse it when it suits us. For example: Why don't we apply our minimum wage laws to…

Not to burst the bubble, but there's a reason why Elon Musk asked for a breakdown of costs for such a plan a few weeks ago. Throwing money at foundations doesn't automagically solves the problem. Sometimes it happens that if you donate clothes to some African communities, corruption will take over and your donation will not reach the hands of those in most need. The clothes will instead be sold into the illegal marke…

Clothes are an interesting point to make. One of first industries to develop in emerging economies is textiles. Africa is having to bypass that because it is undermined by our castoffs.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#92

Post by yardstick »

Animats wrote: post #7
throwaway55421 wrote: post #3

"It is a sad and little-known reality that poverty tends to persist between generations". Is it? To me it's intuitively obvious and I can't think of any real person who would disagree? I can't even conceive of a different way this could work. Reducing the correlation to zero would require basically removing money's functional utility.

Sweden does it. It takes about a 30-35% tax rate.[1] Nigeria is a poor country which still has a high birth rate. Outside of Africa, almost all countries are past that. Even China and India. [1] https://borgenproject.org/poverty-in-sweden/

If it was only 30-35% to achieve this that would be great.

Sweden has a ~55% marginal tax rate for everything over SEK 309,000 (approx 55k USD).

55k USD isn’t much in most US tech companies.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#93

Post by Proven »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #34
ivanmontillam wrote: post #24

It's true that culture can make you poor, by the means of setting your mindset. I've seen people in the towns of South America (i.e. not the main cities) whose family traditions set them on a path of "wait to be given" instead of "go and get it" mentality. Of course, this never materializes, and the person lives their life impoverished. Money is such a taboo in these families, that you end up thinking it's dirty unti…

> if you're a teenage girl, depending on your culture, your family seems to be peer pressuring you to be a mother Ironically, societies that do not steer girls to parenthood are subject to extinction. I'm not saying it's good or bad. It's just the law of nature.

No post body was provided.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#94

Post by elvatoloco123 »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #42
amcoastal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think the people gaining the wealth that some rich families are losing are people that need high economic mobility and not just other rich people?

I think they're losing to the middle class, yes. Folks like Bezos and Zuckerberg didn't start rich.

Yes they did. Bezos, Gates, Buffet, Zuckerberg were all rich

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#95

Post by bserge »

Jensson wrote: post #58
culi wrote: post #52

Relevant: A study in India found that a one-time boost of capital could help families avoid poverty even decades later[0]. The truth is, you probably don't understand poverty. It's both much simpler and much more complicated than your personal anecdata might lead you to believe. By far the best series I've heard on this is On The Media's 5-part series breaking down the biggest poverty myths and what the current scien…

Poverty in poor countries and poverty in rich countries are two totally different issues though. In poor countries poor people don't learn to read, get physical trauma from being near starvation so often etc. That is relatively easy to fix, we have already fixed all of those in every developed country, that we are able to fix them in other countries by injecting money isn't big news. We already try to do that in ever…

No post body was provided.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#96

Post by double_nan »

fhe wrote: post #80
duxup wrote: post #14

> Cultural norms can also encourage poverty cycles. I often wonder about these. Growing up I watched friends whose families had what you might describe as a cultural distrust of institutions, including schools, or even anyone who seemed to “think they’re better than us” (translation anyone who did well in school or a career). They constantly made self defeating choices and seemed destined to have the same problems/ p…

Have you seen people manage to breakout from the poverty cycle? I have lived long enough to actually see a handful of people doing just that, and I often wondered what made them different. One trait I often observed is risk-taking. The ones that broke free from their upbringing always seemed to have high tolerance for risks. So maybe it's simply statistics -- if you have a group of people taking a lot of risks, some…

Risking is one option, but there is another one: the breaking might take more than one generation an that is something which is often overlooked by the modern discourse. Every next generation might end up a bit better off and on the timespan of 50 years the poverty cycle will be broken.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#97

Post by ralusek »

sh4un wrote: post #59
duxup wrote: post #14

> Cultural norms can also encourage poverty cycles. I often wonder about these. Growing up I watched friends whose families had what you might describe as a cultural distrust of institutions, including schools, or even anyone who seemed to “think they’re better than us” (translation anyone who did well in school or a career). They constantly made self defeating choices and seemed destined to have the same problems/ p…

Poor people are used to being victims so it's hard to trust other people. When you look at it deeper, if these are poor minorities in a white mans world, no matter what there will never be trust. Hard to trust the same people who are oppressing you. Many policy maker are born well off, so it's hard to relate. When the social workers are driving in BMW's and talking to you like you're retarded... It's ongoing. I have…

> these are poor minorities in a white mans world

If we're in the reality of accepting that culture, patterns of behavior, and what thoughts are inculcated in people actually impact the outcomes they'll net in life, then I hope we can start legitimately talking about the harm that comes from attitudes like the one you've laid out. The idea that, say, a black person need not even try, because they'll just be attempting in vain in what is ultimately a white man's world...it's horseshit, and it does far more harm than good.

The reality is that almost every elite institution is geared for precisely the opposite of what you're describing. For better or for worse, being a black person applying to college or a job at Google will actually be advantaged on the basis of their race. And if we acknowledge that the first step towards seeing a black person in poverty becoming a black software engineer is knowing that this is even an option for them, and that they have more than a realistic chance of achieving that goal, then maybe we'd be more cautious with the sort of oppression rhetoric we deploy.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#98

Post by xwolfi »

ralusek wrote: post #97
sh4un wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor people are used to being victims so it's hard to trust other people. When you look at it deeper, if these are poor minorities in a white mans world, no matter what there will never be trust. Hard to trust the same people who are oppressing you. Many policy maker are born well off, so it's hard to relate. When the social workers are driving in BMW's and talking to you like you're retarded... It's ongoing. I have…

> these are poor minorities in a white mans world If we're in the reality of accepting that culture, patterns of behavior, and what thoughts are inculcated in people actually impact the outcomes they'll net in life, then I hope we can start legitimately talking about the harm that comes from attitudes like the one you've laid out. The idea that, say, a black person need not even try, because they'll just be attemptin…

Yeah it's very americano centric.

In China where I emigrated, white people arent poorer than their yellow counterparts in average because immigration is done differently (no slavery, no low income, leave if you cant make it etc).

The problem is more complex than color, it's just the immigration origin of the population that drive the current state. A better sentence maybe would be "to be a descendant of slaves in a world of descendants of masters", and even then would probably be unfair to people who actually wanted to end slavery and are now guilty of succeeding.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#99

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

double_nan wrote: post #96
fhe wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen people manage to breakout from the poverty cycle? I have lived long enough to actually see a handful of people doing just that, and I often wondered what made them different. One trait I often observed is risk-taking. The ones that broke free from their upbringing always seemed to have high tolerance for risks. So maybe it's simply statistics -- if you have a group of people taking a lot of risks, some…

Risking is one option, but there is another one: the breaking might take more than one generation an that is something which is often overlooked by the modern discourse. Every next generation might end up a bit better off and on the timespan of 50 years the poverty cycle will be broken.

I remember reading something about this, apparently it’s takes about five generations to escape poverty and about three generations to dissipate family wealth.

I don’t know how to check the robustness of these figures, sounds a bit headliny, maybe sounds approximately sensible at first glance.

Probably something in it.

Re: Once poor, always poor?

#100

Post by antupis »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #48
krapp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ironically, societies that do not steer girls to parenthood are subject to extinction. Which societies have gone extinct due to this?

I'm not aware of such societies: the whole idea of women not being destined for childbearing is relatively new. Some countries are firmly on the course though: https://www.scb.se/en/About-us/news-and-press-releases/2020-...

About all countries https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53409521 there is some exceptions like Nigeria(dropping slowly) but generally fertility rate is dropping all over world.
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