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Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

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Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#121

Hello from another greybeard. I've been in the same boat. I'm not a programmer, though. I was a sysadmin and senior tech-support guy (L3, but I can do anything.) I never specialised: I do Windows, Linux, Mac, and in the past, I did UNIX™, VMS, Netware, all sorts of long-dead stuff back to CP/M. In 2007, I decided to switch from freelance to an office job before I turned 40. It took me about 500 applications to get my…

Thanks for sharing your inspiring and encouraging story.

I suspect that very few people would be brave enough to go as far out on the limb as you have. But you have shown what is possible.

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#122

Build a side project using modern tech. You’ll learn a bunch and then you can put those skills on your CV. I’m happy to look over your CV and guide you on stuff I would look out for. There are also programmes for people that have been out of the industry for a while.

here are two side projects, please let me know what you think: huedoku.com (and the app on itunes) oogiecam (on itunes) thanks!

The first two Download on App Store buttons aren’t links to the App Store. (The third Same Same Or is, but is missing a game screen shot on the web. All Safari on iOS.)

Huedoko is fun for the first few plays anyway. I love the clever name. Being 4 years old and never updated may not “read” the greatest evidence that you’re actively developing.

The core gameplay is alright. It’s not going to be a game that I’ll find addictive, but the core gameplay was interesting and different in a generally good way.

What was missing was some of the challenge/fun elements of modern puzzle games. A timer, a target number of moves, maybe locking in the squares that were already correct. (Why would it move them anyway once I knew they were correct?)

It was also missing some polish. On an XS Max, it didn’t fill the screen. Every so often, I would end up with a solid red screen that I had to click on to proceed.

In your shoes, I’d consider using that app as the basis to rewrite it in React Native. That will give you a game where you know the core dynamics and gameplay, a modern platform that’s highly relevant and well-understood by recruiters.

For oogieCam, I got nothing at all useful until I realized I had to turn off the hardware mute button on my phone (which generally lives engaged but if you can find in software the fact that it’s set, you could give the user a hint). This one’s much more on me than you/the app, but a recruiter or hiring manager is going to be making a 5 minute judgment, so maximize your chances.

Best of luck!

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#123
post #62

As a web developer who works almost exclusively in PHP/SQL and devops, if I was presented with a "Leetcode" challenge or any other intentionally esoteric / purely theoretical bullshit interview technique I would immediately but politely excuse myself from the process. That nonsense is utterly non-representative of what the average programmer will be doing on a daily basis. Even Leetcode's most "easy" problem just see…

> Even Leetcode's most "easy" problem just seems utterly ridiculous to me Generalized slightly from the specifics, “return the indexes of the elements, one from each list, constituting a tuple satisfying a predicate” is not an utterly ridiculous task unrepresentative of things real programmers need to understand how to do. Yeah, usually it won't be lists of integers or the sun operation returning a particular value a…

The problem as I've experienced it is they hire you based on the code example from the interview and then the actual job requires you to know all the orchestration components (puppet, chef, kubernetes, package manager and system settings, etc) to bootstrap the virtual machine OS or cloud component that then will require you to know the particular OS distro CLI or cloud API to then run the code upon.

In my experience, I spend 80% of my time just figuring out how to get the code to run safely and properly and then chugging through the "stack" part of the full stack programmer before I'm even able to run my code at scale. The actual code itself tends to be simple. Sometimes already existing in a very fleshed out and optimized library, sometimes even core to the language itself.

It's really more endemic of more the prevalent problem that what HR thinks programming tends to not be what programmers actually do.

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#124
post #113
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I haven’t heard from you is that you have tried to adjust to the market. Modern market seems to ask from programmers something other than programming. Peter Norvig in the interview to Lex Fridman mentioned that today software is made of building blocks from Internet, not designed from requirements as it used to. For some reasons companies prefer to endlessly lose in dependencies wars rather than have good argum…

But that’s how the market works. I have been making bets on what technology would be useful for the last 35 years. There was no one to help me forecast it. I just do things like read hacker news and similar publications. By sticking to the basics while also focusing on areas that I liked I did pretty well. We get paid more than average because there are risks. Also, I chose some hot technologies that I could tolerate…

> But that’s how the market works.

Yes, and that's the problem for programmers - those who'd prefer to solve problems better in the long run, which costs more in the short run.

In other words, there are programmers, who don't see a point in learning something which isn't really novel and isn't really progressive, but which is required to get a job. Some go for lower salaries, those are sometimes much lower - that's why people with high salaries e.g. from FAANG can be seen as delusional about their actual skills when compared with someone 1/5 of their salaries and stronger design abilities.

The problem - and the associated question - is what to do in the long-irrational market. One answer is known :) but it's not a particularly good one. Hope there are better ones -

> I chose some hot technologies that I could tolerate because I understood that’s just where it is

Sometimes market wants more than you could tolerate - emphasis on the last word.

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#125
If I may do a hunch, since I don't see much information.

But I think older engineers could probably find a better/easier? Job in dev where memory isn't managed.

Eg. C++, hardware companies.

Also, I see multiple references to golang which seems good advice if you want to learn something new.

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#126

There's a lot of banks in Europe that have Cobol and M4 legacy systems which need maintenance. Banks tend to pay well and there's few young people competing for these boring jobs. I'd say double down on the fact that you have experience with old technology. Then find a good headhunter / recruitment firm to work with you. If you're willing to start out as an external contractor, they might get you started working with…

All banks AFAIk not just EU banks.

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#127
If contract work is an option for you, I have a few ideas that might be interesting for you. As an independent consultant, I'm continuously reading the market to get a feeling for current and future demand. This thread is filled with great advice on upgrading skillset and I +1 to all of that because having a viable skillset is a prerequisite for a lot of jobs. You can get some experience by contributing to open source, which is something you discuss in a potential interview - recruiters might not care about it but someone interviewing you might.

On contract work, you'll need to select the recruiters you want to work with. Large recruiting firms have clients all over town and if they send out your resume, they send it to everyone. Essentially, this means if you give your resume to too many recruiters, you're hurting your job prospects. Many hiring managers will skip resumes that are multi-submitted because they don't want to deal with the hassle of which recruiter gets paid if they want to hire you. What has worked well for me, when I use a recruiter, is to go with individuals or small shops that don't have the reach of the larger firms. They're also more likely to pay attention to you because of a candidate shortage and thus easier to create a relationship because you're taking a bet on them as much as they are on you. Go after Jr. developer roles for whatever they want to pay you.

The idea here is to get your foot in the door on any software development work possible. This corresponds to the business perspective of being a contractor, the market determines what you're able to do. When times were hard, my rate went down and I took less desirable work - but it was work. The benefit of any work over no work is (beyond bringing in > $0) that people would rather hire developers that are already working. With contracting, you can get a 3, 6, 12 month gig and get experience. When that's over, it's easier to get the next (better) gig at higher pay - just work your way up over time.

Another idea is to scan CraigsList, attend user groups, or network locally to see if there are any companies or individuals looking for software help. Volunteer work is better than nothing too. Then submit a proposal that is dirt cheap enough to get the work - again this type of market is cost conscious. There are also very few developers, beyond college students, who are willing to do this type of work, especially in today's competitive market. It isn't much, but all of the sudden you have something current on your resume.

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#128
Here are answers to some earlier questions, so my situation may become a bit more clear:

“Tell us more about what you want to do.”

It didn’t seem on-topic to mention goals and such in my original query, so here is a short list of software goals and answers to a question above:

    creating a “killer app” :  Since the 80’s. many many tries.
     was lucky enough to work on CineLook for several years,
 
    synesthesia: the merging and mixing of different types of media : this has been a fixation of mine for decades

    making UI’s that look good AND are easy to use

    data visualization:  good data visualization can really help 

    game development: my first app that sold was a math game
. . .

“Do you have anything you want focus on or do you pride yourself on being a generalist?”

It seems to me that AR will become the de facto standard for UI/UX, and most software will need to adapt to that new metaphor. That includes multimedia and musical software. It would be great to help out in that area somehow. In the 90s I wrote lots of in-house tools, which required me to think like a generalist. This sort of work is fine for me but I would place it as a second priority desire in a perfect world.

. . . “Architect, team lead, or pure development of a system from day to day?” Have led a team on a few occasions and was able to handle it but it would depend on the team. Have done pure development for decades but it doesn’t have to be the only thing I do.

. . .

“And business domains that you’re especially familiar with or interested in?”

Anything involving new uses of media and trans-media. Some things being done in aerospace are very appealing, such as the concept of a 3D-printed rocket. Financials are interesting also, as would be supporting research in astronomy, physics (especially superconductivity) or perhaps infrastructure. Education is also a great field to do work in.

thanks once again for all the info and support!

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#129

If contract work is an option for you, I have a few ideas that might be interesting for you. As an independent consultant, I'm continuously reading the market to get a feeling for current and future demand. This thread is filled with great advice on upgrading skillset and I +1 to all of that because having a viable skillset is a prerequisite for a lot of jobs. You can get some experience by contributing to open sourc…

A Jr. Developer job is just fine for me, however the last time FB talked to me they said they were looking for a particular job role (it was lead Developer) and would'nt bump me down... how do you look for a lesser role if you cant be hired for a bigger one?

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#130
post #45

I have two suggestions. I'm 75 with 54 years programming experience. I got a job because the employer (a university) couldn't find anyone to do the work at a pathetic salary. That's suggestion number one: find an employer who is desperate. The misconceptions and prejudices of the employment system would prevent my resume-application from ever reaching the person making the hiring decision. The second suggestion is pr…

I'm 64 and been programming for 40 years. I am fortunate that I am able to not work due to a small military disability pension, plus I'll take social security soon. My last experience was Facebook contacted me a few times, which I blew off because I knew they would never hire me. Finally I told them "You know I'm over 60, right?" and they got off the phone and never called back. I'm thinking about doing some part tim…

I conduct interviews for Facebook and we do not discriminate on age. I assume the recruiter just got the impression you really didn’t want to interview with us. I only do the coding interviews but every piece of interview feedback I write is focused on the same criteria and that definitely does not consider age. We don’t even refer to the gender of an applicant in the feedback, and comments on an applicants age would be a quick way for me to get dropped from the interviewer pool.
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