Steam has been banned in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Steam has been banned in China

#511

Post by nowherebeen » Sun, Dec 26, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

alisonatwork wrote: post #307

arbuge wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is weird. Definitely not my experience at all. I visited Shanghai, Beijing, and Chengdu in China in 2012 and I felt extremely welcome wherever I went. I might also add that in Chengdu, a city which sees considerably less foreigners than the other two, I felt like I was being treated like somewhat of a celebrity, with people smiling at me everywhere, and random passer-bys on the street trying to impress me with t…

2012 is a very long time ago by Chinese standards. Xi only became the general secretary in November of that year and the president in 2013. Most of his authoritarian and nationalist policies have only really kicked into a higher gear from 2018. The xenophobia got even worse after the coronavirus hit, and I can't imagine it has improved much since I left in 2020. Also, I don't know what makes you think that Chengdu is…

I never saw it that way. Your comment definitely opened my eyes.

Re: Steam has been banned in China

#512

Post by wiether » Sun, Dec 26, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

sgjohnson wrote: post #379

angio wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't Guantanamo Bay and other torture camps (black sites as they are known now) still open?

They are, and it’s horrible. But they key difference is that you won’t really see anyone downplaying them or outright denying their existence.

To me the key difference is in the way the propaganda is done.

Pro-CCP people are posting comments on the Internet to try to convince western people.

Pro-Russia people are paying celebrities of western countries to promote their culture, they are also creating news networks in the west to do the same.

USA is using the global western culture (Hollywood, singers...) to promote their agenda.

Since we're talking about torture, in the last two decades, the USA produced dozen of films or TV shows where torture is depicted as a necessary evil for the good guy to win over the bad guys. Just look at Jack Bauer. They don't need to go an Twitter saying "no, that's not what happens, we're the good guys, see...", because in the mind of (almost) everyone, it's already accepted, since they saw a good guy doing it in a movie.

The propaganda machine from CCP is just not as evolved as the USA's, they are trying to catch up. But all in all, it's a same. It's just more obvious for the CCP guys because they haven't the right tools yet. But given how they are investing in cultural services, I'm sure they will soon be better at it and we won't have those kind of discussion anymore. It will not be "propaganda", but just people arguing against each other on topics on which their favorite state has different opinion.

Re: Steam has been banned in China

#513

Post by topspin » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 1:03 AM UTC

ganzuul wrote: post #508

topspin wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hotly contested? Uyghur oppression is some figment of our imagination? Will you assert that without the "hotly contested" weasel words?

No that seems like you are over-extending what I said. 'Hotly contested' doesn't imply there is substance to the context, only that there is great effort being made.

> 'Hotly contested' doesn't imply there is substance to the context, only that there is great effort being made.

This is incoherent.

Re: Steam has been banned in China

#514

Post by chrischen » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 1:56 AM UTC

GauntletWizard wrote: post #429

chrischen wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can assume anything. Doesn't mean it's true. The reality is that your perception of China is highly fantasized and part of a crafted narrative. It's dangerous if you continue to contribute to this propaganda without care as to whether you've verified anything you've heard yourself. Maybe it's true, maybe not, but I doubt you'd know. I mean, it's certainly possible our rooms were bugged, but to what end? To fulfil…

Your naivete is unsurprising; it was one of the traits you were selected for in trip planning. Countries spy on foreign visitors. Friendship trips are carefully planned to show none of the underside of a society. China is one of the most oppressive regimes out there - see the detention of Jack Ma, who was five years ago one of their most celebrated businessmen.

Well, must be Obama’s conspiracy because the US side selected the participants. You speak as if you have indisputable proof of some conspiracy.

The naïveté is not understanding that China’s problems is not so much they are evil masterminds rather than just incompetent bureaucrats. The takeaway from the trip is that 90% of what they expose to the outside world is a facade to save face for their own politicians, not that they are competent super spies.

They may have spied on us, but we’d have not much value being spied upon. If spying is somehow the benchmark of authoritarian regimes then the US and Israel probably lead the pack of these types of regimes.

Secondly, just because you disagree with government policies doesn’t make it some evil regime. You cited Jack Ma but he is still out and about.

Re: Steam has been banned in China

#515

Post by honkdaddy » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 3:13 AM UTC

tombh wrote: post #142

honkdaddy wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very interesting. So you think generally the news of vast human rights abuse we see coming out of China are due to the West's psychological struggles (?), and not due to actual suffering caused by the Chinese government? Do you have any Chinese heritage in your family? This reminds me of the perspective most of my half-Chinese friends had from back in college. They always felt as if it was their duty to defend…

I am 100% British. You misunderstand me. I am saying that if we truly have China's, or namely humanity's best interests at heart when we criticise China, then we could profoundly increase our effectiveness if we demonstrated even just a basic understanding of context. Namely that the West is defined by its colonialism, its power and influence comes from exploitation of more than half the world. To give an example, if…

We can split hairs about Boris Johnson throwing private parties or Joe Biden not wearing a mask or something equally trivial, but at the end of the day, I know of only one major world power which is systematically rounding up its citizens and sending them to reeducation and sterilization camps. It frustrates me when people try to defend China in such roundabout ways when the proof is in the pudding. If anything, humanity would be better off if we were _more_ harsh on China, and willing to call out its grave, grave sins, rather than absurdly shifting the discussion to Western colonialism.

The CCP are quite literally ethnically cleansing their own citizens! And lying about it! Why is it even worth discussing the context of Western colonialism when there's a true and honest legal genocide being performed at the hands of the government? This argument is no different than saying that if we just understood the context of Germany's situation in the 1930s better, perhaps we wouldn't criticize the Nazi regime as strongly. There are some acts which transcend cultural context because of how barbaric they are, and in my opinion, what's happening with the Uighur peoples is beyond forgiveness.

Re: Steam has been banned in China

#516

Post by tjpnz » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

unityByFreedom wrote: post #506

tjpnz wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need web3 to punch holes in The Great Firewall of China. I've got a tech illiterate acquaintance living there right now and they regularly finds ways around it.

That explains why China decided to propagandize the whole internet.

Pretty much. Seen /r/worldnews recently?

Re: Steam has been banned in China

#517

Post by tombh » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

honkdaddy wrote: post #515

tombh wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am 100% British. You misunderstand me. I am saying that if we truly have China's, or namely humanity's best interests at heart when we criticise China, then we could profoundly increase our effectiveness if we demonstrated even just a basic understanding of context. Namely that the West is defined by its colonialism, its power and influence comes from exploitation of more than half the world. To give an example, if…

We can split hairs about Boris Johnson throwing private parties or Joe Biden not wearing a mask or something equally trivial, but at the end of the day, I know of only one major world power which is systematically rounding up its citizens and sending them to reeducation and sterilization camps. It frustrates me when people try to defend China in such roundabout ways when the proof is in the pudding. If anything, huma…

This is a misunderstanding of my viewpoint that I often get. I'm not defending China, and I'm not engaging in Whataboutism. Although I certainly understand how it seems like that. My point is that words are more effective when the speaker of those words lives by those words. Of course the metaphors of Boris Johnson's parties and Joe Biden's lack of mask wearing are trivial, it's just an example.

Yes, the CCP are quite literally ethnically cleansing their own citizens! But also yes, the entirety of the Americas and Australia are already ethnically cleansed. The West has set the precedent. We simply have no power to, as much as it's the ethically correct thing to do, admonish China.

Re: Steam has been banned in China

#518

Post by flavius29663 » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

everforward wrote: post #504

_-david-_ wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whataboutism has nothing to do with morality. If country A does something bad it doesn't mean that it is not actually bad because country B did something similar. Do you find it interesting that anytime there is a thread about the US doing something bad that nobody jumps in and say well China did the same thing? It only goes one way. That is why I am calling it out. The reason why it goes one way is because people wh…

People also don't generally comment on the amount of pro-US or pro-Europe comments in those threads. I don't think I've ever seen any accusations of Western astroturfing. Influencing the media, sure, but not being directly in the comments. Also, the US is trying to maintain a moral high ground (real or perceived). They don't want to be associated with China. I don't think anyone would say "well China does it too!" bu…

You gave yourself the answer at the end right there: Germany got rid of Hitler only after an incredibly bloody world war and having its cities turned into 30 feet of rubble.

IMO the comparison to India is not fair. India is not doing the same aggressive international moves like China does. And the internal problems can be slowly resolved democratically. There is no democracy in China, they won't solve their problems that way.

Re: Steam has been banned in China

#519

Post by KwisatzHaderack » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

gentleman11 wrote: post #347

siva7 wrote: post #25

What is going on here with the comment section? Seems like it's flooded with pro ccp activists

On hn, we should try to engage with peoples ideas, and be careful about attributing motives and dismissing people. That said, I’ve seen a lot of pro ccp posts in the last few months. If we hypothetically say there are state manipulators on hn becoming active, what is the most mature way to respond to the situation?

The most mature way would be to debate their claims with logic, data, sources, etc.

Re: Steam has been banned in China

#520

Post by _-david-_ » Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

oblak wrote: post #448

_-david-_ wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whataboutism has nothing to do with morality. If country A does something bad it doesn't mean that it is not actually bad because country B did something similar. Do you find it interesting that anytime there is a thread about the US doing something bad that nobody jumps in and say well China did the same thing? It only goes one way. That is why I am calling it out. The reason why it goes one way is because people wh…

You make some good points but I am not completely convinced you're arguing in good faith. Do you have any cases of "pro CCP" content reaching the front page here? Because the opposite happens multiple times a day. Context matters. Pointing out blatant hypocrisy has nothing to do with supporting whatever the current boogie man is.

I am not saying pro-CCP content is reaching the front page. All I am saying is pro China / anti-west comments are common in threads about China. In this very thread there are many comments basically saying the US and the rest of the western countries are no different than the CCP. This thread has nothing to do with the west other than Valve being a western company. I wouldn't mind a conversation about the companies in the west doing business in China or western countries restricting Chinese companies, but that is often times not what we are seeing.

Most of the posters on HN live in the west and likely consider the government of the country they live in to be better (morally) to the government of China. Seeing posts that are pro-western is to be expected for that reason. Like I said above, I am not saying there is a problem with pro CCP posts making the front page. If China does something good, I would have no issues with an article about it making the front page.

I would also note that posts that are critical of the west (especially US) do make it to the front page. In those posts at worst we see an acceptance that it happened and maybe some arguments that we should do more to try to fix the wrongs done. When we have a China post we see deflection and sometimes denial of human rights violations. When there was a post about the Uyghurs there were multiple commenters saying we can't trust the western intelligence agencies and news organizations. When is the last time you saw comments like that when it was against a western country?