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How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

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Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#61

Post by mattlondon »

cdata wrote: post #48

Anyone who claims one language or tech stack is going to become the be-all, end-all of how we build things on the web is either naive or selling something. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of ignoring grandstanders and focusing my time and energy on learning how browsers work. If you understand the DOM, CSS and core JavaScript fundamentals, you can apply your skills to virtually any front-end stack. In the end, the t…

Ironically this is why I prefer angular to react - people say angular is more complex, but IMHO it removes complexity by being "batteries included": reduced cognitive load because and angular project is an angular project so you only need to learn angular itself, and not a zillion extra libraries or frameworks.

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#62

Post by ng12 »

God, I am so tired of these arguments. We need to stop bike-shedding web technology. You will never, ever convince me to go back to server-side rendering for the type of work I do. Are there other domains where that would be the wrong choice? Absolutely.

The web is a platform and we should not treat these tools as one-size-fits-all. Use the tools that fit your use case; there's no use in talking about the how without the why.

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#63

Post by unclebucknasty »

cdata wrote: post #48

Anyone who claims one language or tech stack is going to become the be-all, end-all of how we build things on the web is either naive or selling something. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of ignoring grandstanders and focusing my time and energy on learning how browsers work. If you understand the DOM, CSS and core JavaScript fundamentals, you can apply your skills to virtually any front-end stack. In the end, the t…

Agree. The other thing I'd add is that we're long overdue for a more fundamental paradigm shift in webdev.

That is, we've changed our goal from the original page request/response model to one of delivering native-like SPA experiences. But, the frameworks that win don't fundamentally reconsider the old technology. Instead, they stop at the DOM layer, speak heavy HTML/CSS, make us manage browser mechanics like URLs, history and back buttons, and help us to better manage those old Web constructs while keeping them in focus.

So, they've added these abstraction layers that just keep piling up.

At some point we have to ask whether this is fundamentally the right approach.

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#65

Post by recursivedoubts »

seumars wrote: post #54
recursivedoubts wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we were asked multiple times for a response to Mr. Harris' talk, and so we gave one i think you are missing the hypermedia vs. RPC aspect of the discussion, and the javascript-everywhere vs. Hypermedia-On-Whatever-you'd-Like aspect of it, which i believe are relatively unique in the discussions i have seen but, it is fair, both laziness and self-promotion are forever a danger for me

I get the argument, though I wouldn’t call it unique given how long JS fatigue has been a thing. HTMX is just one piece of the puzzle though so a more correct comparison would be a mature application built with htmx vs say sveltekit, not a list of cherry picked htmx features.

I reiterate, I was responding to Mr. Harris' presentation, and showing how a hypermedia approach can address his specific concerns with MPA applications. There are other more comprehensive and philosophical articles (as well as podcasts, etc.) available on the talk page.

A sibling comment offers a perhaps useful comparison:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29695531

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#66

Post by kingcharles »

We also have to accept that some dynamic page problems are completely unsolvable or have horrible solutions.

For instance, with infinite scroll - I spend 10 minutes scrolling down through 7000 rows, with all but the first few loaded dynamically.

I now want to send what I'm looking at to a friend. Or I want to bookmark it. Sure, I can have my app put the scrollposition in an anchor tag in the URL, but what happens when that URI is navigated to? Whatever solution you pick, it is horrid.

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#67

Post by nawgz »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #55
nawgz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> each request starts with an empty state Strange place to post such a … misguided stance. HTMX regularly brags about how it’s meant to be used to mutate the DOM the user already has loaded, thru custom HTML attributes handled by their JS framework. You’re just arguing in favor of HTML, but HTMX is trying to have their cake and eat it too. JS-level state is clearly easier to manage than DOM-level.

Well, using Hypermedia As The Engine of Application State doesn't seem too... outside the lines of the web.

Yes, a giant tree representing a view layer which blends data with presentation is clearly the canonical representation of app state...

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#68

Post by recursivedoubts »

nawgz wrote: post #67
recursivedoubts wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, using Hypermedia As The Engine of Application State doesn't seem too... outside the lines of the web.

Yes, a giant tree representing a view layer which blends data with presentation is clearly the canonical representation of app state...

Well, according to Roy Fielding...

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#69

Post by 88913527 »

cdata wrote: post #48

Anyone who claims one language or tech stack is going to become the be-all, end-all of how we build things on the web is either naive or selling something. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of ignoring grandstanders and focusing my time and energy on learning how browsers work. If you understand the DOM, CSS and core JavaScript fundamentals, you can apply your skills to virtually any front-end stack. In the end, the t…

Angular and React were a response to the problem of abstraction-less frontends: spaghetti jQuery, piled ten miles high. I appreciate the concern for over-abstraction introducing unnecessary complexity, but there's got to be a point on the continuum of spaghetti-jquery to react+redux+node_modules that's the sweet spot. If you're choiceful in what tools you use, you can have that in 2021. It doesn't have to be overly complex (though you certainly can make it that way).

By building apps using 100% client-side rendering with GraphQL and Rest APIs, I can use tools like Storybook to build a user interface that are easy to automate testing and ultimately, and consistently, ship enterprise-grade UIs. All my apps are behind auth walls. If need SSR, there's tools like Next.js.

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#70

Post by jcelerier »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #63
cdata wrote: post #48

Anyone who claims one language or tech stack is going to become the be-all, end-all of how we build things on the web is either naive or selling something. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of ignoring grandstanders and focusing my time and energy on learning how browsers work. If you understand the DOM, CSS and core JavaScript fundamentals, you can apply your skills to virtually any front-end stack. In the end, the t…

Agree. The other thing I'd add is that we're long overdue for a more fundamental paradigm shift in webdev. That is, we've changed our goal from the original page request/response model to one of delivering native-like SPA experiences. But, the frameworks that win don't fundamentally reconsider the old technology. Instead, they stop at the DOM layer, speak heavy HTML/CSS, make us manage browser mechanics like URLs, hi…

Check out Canonic https://www.canonic.com/ for an experimental take on an alternative web
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