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How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

htmx.org

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Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#21

Post by recursivedoubts »

hello, I am the author of this article

it is a response to a talk that Mr. Harris gave at JamStack entitled "Have Single-Page Applications Ruined the Web?":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=860d8usGC0o

in the article I show how a hypermedia-oriented (rather than javascript-oriented) library like htmx can address many of the usability concerns that Mr. Harris raises with MPAs, without abandoning the fundamental REST-ful architecture of the web for a more RPC-like javascript architecture.

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#22

Post by seumars »

danpalmer wrote: post #10
seumars wrote: post #7

I'm sorry but what's the point here? Rich's talk was not even remotely aimed at HTMX yet this article is nothing but a shameless list of HTMX features.

The point is that Rich suggested that SPAs are the only way to solve these problems, and that MPAs can’t. This is a rebuttal from HTMX suggesting that MPAs can in fact solve these problems.

No, the entire point of borrowing the term transitional is "having the best of both worlds". The SPA/MPA comparison is about highlighting the best aspects of each method and envision ways of implementing both. Any decent framework nowadays can be used to implement "transitional" features, so HTMX using this as a way to plug their own is lazy and annoyingly counterproductive in this particular discussion.

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#23

Post by toastking »

I think they're overlooking a very big issue which is trying to do any sort of business logic in a markup language is terrible. HTML is good for presentation, trying to embed logic like retrying requests in it can lead to weird code. The reason people like Javascript is having a fully C-style language for things makes logic easier to read and maintain.

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#24

Post by luckylion »

bryik wrote: post #13

> CPU is cheap, network speeds are fast and increasing and microservices are a mess. Is CPU cheap? I can literally host a static site or SPA on GitHub Pages for free. Where can I get free CPU time for an htmlx application?

> Is CPU cheap? I can literally host a static site or SPA on GitHub Pages for free. Where can I get free CPU time for an htmlx application?

Cheap != free, but the large cloud providers all have a free tier.

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#25

Post by divbzero »

ravenstine wrote: post #5

> And, contra what Mr. Harris says, today the trend is not obviously in javascripts favor. Five years ago, we, as founding members of the javascript resistance, were despairing of any hope of stopping the Javascript juggernaut. But then something unexpected happened: Python took off and, at the same time, javascript flat lined: Why yes... if you use Stack Overflow usage as your measurement. The problem is that doesn'…

Even if we assume that Stack Overflow is a good proxy for overall language usage, OP does not account for the fact that Python is used more broadly than JavaScript in non-web use cases — e.g. the use of Python for machine learning.

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#26

Post by bckr »

seumars wrote: post #7

I'm sorry but what's the point here? Rich's talk was not even remotely aimed at HTMX yet this article is nothing but a shameless list of HTMX features.

> htmx.org

> We have been asked for our opinion on the talk, so this essay is our response

I had the same question, answered by the above.

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#27

Post by recursivedoubts »

earthboundkid wrote: post #20
danpalmer wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that Rich suggested that SPAs are the only way to solve these problems, and that MPAs can’t. This is a rebuttal from HTMX suggesting that MPAs can in fact solve these problems.

Rich wasn’t arguing for SPA but for hybrid SSR, so that seems like it’s a non-sequitur.

As we mention in the article, we agree w/ Mr. Harris on the hybrid approach, but disagree on whether or not hypermedia or javascript/RPC should be the "primary" model.

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#28

Post by bryik »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #15
bryik wrote: post #13

> CPU is cheap, network speeds are fast and increasing and microservices are a mess. Is CPU cheap? I can literally host a static site or SPA on GitHub Pages for free. Where can I get free CPU time for an htmlx application?

You can host an htmx-based site on Github Pages for free as well.

Does that fit with the philosophy of htmx? It looks to me like htmlx expects a server?

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#29

Post by recursivedoubts »

bryik wrote: post #28
recursivedoubts wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can host an htmx-based site on Github Pages for free as well.

Does that fit with the philosophy of htmx? It looks to me like htmlx expects a server?

htmx simply expects hypermedia/HTML

whatever can serve that can be used with htmx: it is intended as a straight-forward extension of HTML

Re: How a hypermedia approach can address usability concerns with multi-page apps

#30

Post by noelwelsh »

I'm not sure these are actual problems (other than JS tooling, which I find opaque.) Instagram works just fine for the vast majority of people. It's taken as gospel that Javascript frameworks are "bloated" but 1) is this really true; and 2) if true does this really matter if the page loads fast enough? React is only 5.3kB and gives a very simple model for reasoning about code. Making code smaller or faster has a cost.

I'll also note that htmx is making a programming language, but they don't seem to understand they are making a programming language, and that usually ends up a disaster. See all the YAML stuff in the devops world.

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