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Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

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Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#591
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the OP is playing 20 questions for their own entertainment. I think what they're not telling you is that there's nothing to prevent someone from making a closed-source product incorporating something which is MIT licensed (but they're still supposed to give credit where due). That's also not the whole story. Squirrel!

If they don't know the answer to the question I actually asked, all they have to do is not answer it. I object to the notion that I'm the one playing games here.

It does seem like you are doing this. I have tried to answer you. Instead of asking questions, just state how you believe I’m wrong. I’m ok with this, if I’ve not understood something or made a mistake, I’m happy to concede.

Asking questions until you get an answer you want worked for Socrates, but for everyone else it is better to just state what is wrong about my and other’s argument and the reason why.

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they can change the copyright ownership from an individual to themselves, then they could (however unlikely) change the license on subsequent revisions to no longer provide the software free of charge, and could prevent anyone from using the software and associated documentation files in an unrestricted form.

Putting the wrong info in a file doesn't change the copyright ownership.

And thus the flaw in my argument. I concede the point. Thank you.

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#593
post #532
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is running a bot to change copyright notices a /mistake/? > Full disclosure: I work for MS It is difficult to see the reality distortion field you are in from the inside.

This breaks several of the HN guidelines and crosses into personal attack. We ban accounts that post like that, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I respectfully, and vehemently disagree. Informing someone that they may be drinking too much of their company's Kool-Aid, without knowing what is in it, is a moral obligation.

Despicable that you present this as a bannable offense.

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#594
post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The world is full of important people performing vital tasks either without fail or wherein failures can be caught by other individuals and processes that serve as guard rails. Sometimes planes literally fall out of the sky. NASA caused a space shuttle to explode killing the entire crew. It is fundamentally untrue that anywhere in the world we have perfect people or processes. > The solution isn't merely to be perf…

> Further disclosure: If someone showed up to a postmortem for my team with this level of condescension and no useful advice, I’d tell them to be quiet or leave. If I worked with you it would be my responsibility to support my coworker and help them improve. As it is neither of us has much of an obligation to the other we are uninvolved third parties giving our unsolicited opinions to one another. It is a privilege a…

> This is an excellent point insofar as explaining why the bug might have happened. I disagree however that it is sufficient explanation. Such code should still check for the presence of an existing license file for another license and raise an error that requires human intervention to override. That is constructive and actionable.

Sure. In retrospect, that seems like a really good idea. But I'm sure you've done an awful lot of stuff that is dumb in retrospect, too.

Legal asks for tooling to ensure that the correct license file ends up on all developer projects. It's known that developers will often Google license agreements, copy them from places that don't belong, end up with the wrong LICENSE from a templating mistake. Someone builds tooling to just smash the correct LICENSE file in as a first commit on any repo that shows up in the Microsoft org: if it's an active developer and this is the rare case where this logic is wrong, surely they'll notice that this has happened, and this will prevent code from being up with an incorrect license.

Then, the use case evolves: people start to fork things into the Microsoft organization, and this code does the wrong thing an appreciable fraction of the time. But no one is scrutinizing commits on forked repos to the same extent and doesn't notice.

Maybe you do much better and have never made a mistake like this. But real people make real mistakes. Yes, when you encounter a mistake, you try to get better for next time! But that doesn't mean that we should expect a 0 mistake rate out of ______ org or not assume good faith with an ordinary rate of bad outcomes until proven otherwise.

Unlike the GP poster, I am not a MSFT employee-- I am often skeptical of MSFT actions but they get a pass here. Obliterating the license file has no advantage for MSFT, and has the risk of legal exposure and this kind of public black eye. Obviously someone screwed up, but screw ups happen. Now that Jeff Wilcox has had to work on Christmas, you can be sure he will be even more attuned to this type of issue in the future.

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Scrutiny" doesn't mean making up nonsense issues, which is what this is. There's no amount of weasel words you're going to apply that's going to make changing an MIT license in a public git repository part of a terrifying conspiracy --- or a conspiracy of any sort.

Removing and applying an incorrect license to open source software by a multi-national software giant is a "nonsense issue"? Hardly "weasel words" when you look at the action that took place. It wouldn't be OK for you to do it and it isn't OK for a bot that Microsoft deployed incorrectly to do either.

How much of the operation of the MIT license do you want explained to you? I’m happy to do it but don’t want to patronize you either.

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#596
post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This breaks several of the HN guidelines and crosses into personal attack. We ban accounts that post like that, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I respectfully, and vehemently disagree. Informing someone that they may be drinking too much of their company's Kool-Aid, without knowing what is in it, is a moral obligation. Despicable that you present this as a bannable offense.

Sorry, but garden-variety internet comments and cheap personal attacks don't rise to the noble level of moral obligation. The comment plainly broke the site rules. That's not allowed here. If people have noble duties to fulfill, they can do that without breaking the rules.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Removing and applying an incorrect license to open source software by a multi-national software giant is a "nonsense issue"? Hardly "weasel words" when you look at the action that took place. It wouldn't be OK for you to do it and it isn't OK for a bot that Microsoft deployed incorrectly to do either.

How much of the operation of the MIT license do you want explained to you? I’m happy to do it but don’t want to patronize you either.

"The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software."

I understand the license. Based on your response and Microsoft's attribution change I don't think you understand the argument. I won't patronize you however based on the non-response.

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#598
I was asked to run out Intune on Android [0], which is a Mobile Device Manager from Microsoft, (aka MDM) [1].

We needed an always-on VPN. Intune supports several, but all insist you run some proprietary server software. If you don't understand why that would make someone feel uncomfortable, PulseSecure [2] was one of those options. There is open source GPL software that replaces the proprietary back ends called OpenConnect [3], but that violates their client licensing.

Then I discovered Microsoft has their own VPN called mstunnel. That's when I felt like I had fallen down the rabbit hole. I dismissed mstunnel initially because since it is a Microsoft Product, it would run only on Windows, right? Turns out it only runs on Linux. I thought you installed the mstunnel client on Android, because among other things it existed - but nope it was superceded by this thing called "Defender for EndPoint".

The server came as a Docker install, but we didn't have the required version of Docker so I unpacked it and ran it in a chroot. That all worked in the end, but in the process of unpacking it I discovered what it was under the hood. It had two things - an "agent" written in dotnet whose sole function as far as I could tell was verify with Microsoft's servers you have paid for it and ... a copy of free as in beer OpenConnect.

Nothing wrong with that really. In fact it's the reverse - it being OpenConnect under the hood gave me a lot of confidence I wasn't dealing with another PulseSecure. The only fly in the ointment is OpenConnect is GPL. They are completely free to use it the way they did - in fact I suspect the OpenConnect authors would be very happy to see the project used in that way. But you do have to comply with the licence. There was no attribution whatsoever, let alone instructions on a copy of the source as the licence requires.

I'm sure it's just an oversight, just like the subject of this article. Maybe it's another mess for Jeff to fix. I don't know you from a bar of soap Jeff, but keep up the good work.

[0] Intune provides a uniform MDM like experience across many platforms - including Windows. If you need to control Windows like that you probably don't have much choice, you have to use a Microsoft product. Maybe it works very well on Windows, but it's an ugly, buggy thing on Android, and the UI is a confusing mess. If you only need an MDM for Android I can heartily recommend headwind (https://h-mdm.com/), which we rolled out before Intune because it took literally months to get the licences (in fact, we still don't have them). Headwind is open source, is cheaper than Intune and has free tier, and frankly was a joy to work with - once you discovered their doco was all in the FAQ's.

[1] For the uninitiated, all Android devices (and iOS) allow a company to take control of a device by installing an MDM, something that can happen only immediately after a factory reset. Thereafter Android displays "your company can see everything you do on this device".

[2] https://threatpost.com/pulse-secure-critical-zero-day-active...

[3] https://www.infradead.org/openconnect/

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of the operation of the MIT license do you want explained to you? I’m happy to do it but don’t want to patronize you either.

"The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software." I understand the license. Based on your response and Microsoft's attribution change I don't think you understand the argument. I won't patronize you however based on the non-response.

No, do go ahead, because I don't understand really any of the dudgeon being worked up in this thread, given the original license gave Microsoft the right to do virtually anything it wanted to with the software already. Obviously, Microsoft shouldn't take credit for other people's work; equally obviously, to me at least, that's not what they were trying to do, since all it took was a single Github link to show what had happened.

So, yes, nonsense issue. What am I missing?

Re: Microsoft forked MIT licensed repo and changed the copyright [fixed]

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they don't know the answer to the question I actually asked, all they have to do is not answer it. I object to the notion that I'm the one playing games here.

It does seem like you are doing this. I have tried to answer you. Instead of asking questions, just state how you believe I’m wrong. I’m ok with this, if I’ve not understood something or made a mistake, I’m happy to concede. Asking questions until you get an answer you want worked for Socrates, but for everyone else it is better to just state what is wrong about my and other’s argument and the reason why.

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