Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Systemd 250 Released

lwn.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 204 posts

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#181

Post by mrlonglong »

kaba0 wrote: post #149
captainmuon wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systemd by itself is alright, the problem for me is the larger movement from "Linux is about choice" to tightly integrated, opinionated tools. Examples: - Gnome started to depend on systemd features. Now non-systemd systems become second class citizens. - You used to be able to freely swap out window managers, taskbars, and so on, because everything was working with common standards. In the modern world, everything i…

Wayland doesn’t mandate anything, it’s a goddamn protocol to put a rectangular window’s content to the screen. It is also freely extendable and has a very sane feature discovery in-built so basically any additional functionality can be created through a simple API (and many such exist already)

But can you run a remote application from another machine on your own machine? This is my biggest obstacle with Wayland. Xorg did it perfectly.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#182

Post by mrlonglong »

p_l wrote: post #138
pverghese wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no reason to be so dramatic. In the end you are free to use any init system you want.

I was happy ignoring systemd (and no, not depending on broken debian/redhat rc.d scripts) till my distro gave update that due to GNOME 3.8 they are forced to switch everything to systemd instead of keeping it optional like before. It became a question of "are you going to have GNOME 3.8 or later, or not"

Not really, I currently run Gnome 3.40 without needing systemd on my machine. How? I use Gentoo.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#183

Post by raverbashing »

majewsky wrote: post #171
raverbashing wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the end you are free to use any init system you want. Not really https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Hard_dependencies_on_systemd

Honestly this list is way shorter than I would have expected before clicking, and most of it is very niche stuff (not on the scale of "the entirety of GNOME", for example). Also, some of the entries have notes like "likely usable without systemd if someone puts in the work".

Good catch, for reference I'm surprised they fixed this (which was my main worry):

> For versions 3.28 and earlier, the GNOME desktop environment contained components that required systemd-logind[5] (among them, notably, its display manager, GDM). However, as of version 3.30, Gentoo's packaging of GNOME allows it to work once again with sysvinit + OpenRC as the init system

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#184

Post by kaba0 »

mrlonglong wrote: post #181
kaba0 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland doesn’t mandate anything, it’s a goddamn protocol to put a rectangular window’s content to the screen. It is also freely extendable and has a very sane feature discovery in-built so basically any additional functionality can be created through a simple API (and many such exist already)

But can you run a remote application from another machine on your own machine? This is my biggest obstacle with Wayland. Xorg did it perfectly.

Yes you can with proper compression and usual streaming. X is no longer network transparent anyways (everyone uses proper GPU-acceleration with a litany of bitmaps so it’s not as easy as serialize drawing commands)

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#185

Post by esarbe »

guywhocodes wrote: post #180
esarbe wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in fact it at first pushed us back A LOT That argument I don't quite follow. Would you consider rephrasing it? My question is; how did PA set back Linux sound if it did expose all those flaws in the audio driver in the first place?

Not everyone is a power user. At this time I was in university and Linux went from a reasonable choice to an unreasonable due to sound not working again. If you care about real world usage, PA set us back years when Ubuntu made it default.

> Linux went from a reasonable choice to an unreasonable due to sound not working again.

But that's the crux, isn't it? Linux sound was not not-working because of PA. Linux sound was not working because it was fundamentally broken with drivers that had wildly different behaviors. Everyone was hacking around broken drivers all the time, I distinctly remember how I had to recompile the kernel back then to get some custom-fixes for my setup in because the driver was so kaput.

Only with the introduction of PA was there finally a way to test and evaluate the drivers in a systematic fashion.

So, in short, my point is this; any software that - in this broken state of Linux audio - tried to introduce a software that made available the features the drivers proclaimed would have run into exactly the same problem as PA. Because PA didn't introduce the problem, PA made it visible.

It's like blaming the doctor for diagnosing the illness.

So, while your experience was that sound suddenly wasn't working anymore because Ubuntu configured the default setup to use PA, for lots of people that sound never worked this was fine - because their drivers weren't broken.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#186

Post by esarbe »

bitwize wrote: post #54

Congratulations to the systemd team. I still won't use systemd, and to the extent of my ability I will fight the trend of the Linux ecosystem hard-depending on it. But it's a bit silly to be anything but grateful for open source and choice.

I applaud your ability to simultaneously dislike systemd and acknowledge the achievements of it's developers without the need to vilify them.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#187

Post by IshKebab »

lmm wrote: post #159
IshKebab wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's the "hard dependency on libc" list? Or "hard dependency on Bash"? It's ridiculous to imagine that no program is allowed to depend on SystemD.

> Where's the "hard dependency on libc" list? There are multiple libc implementations. libc independence is important and valuable. You'll probably find a "hard dependency on glibc" list in the documentation of e.g. Alpine. > Or "hard dependency on Bash"? Ubuntu will have a list from when they switched to ash as /bin/sh. Again, multiple implementations and independence are important, and something the linux community…

> There are multiple libc implementations

You could make another SystemD implementation if you really wanted. The point is that there are plenty of APIs - even ones with a single implementation - that nobody bats an eye about programs having a "hard dependency" on, but suddenly for SystemD it's apparently a big issue?

It's bullshit technical excuses to hide the real reasons people object to SystemD, which are more embarrassing.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#188

Post by p_l »

esarbe wrote: post #172
p_l wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit of revisionist history. Systemd was minority pretty much till GNOME 3.8 introduced super-hard dependencies on it through an interface that was supposedly documented (Ubuntu sunk a bunch of money trying to keep alternative implementation running). For many a distro, it became a question - "do we include GNOME, or do we drop it?" and that was impetus to move to systemd

This is simply not true[0]. To quote: > This is really unfortunate, but GNOME 3.8 does not require logind. I discussed the non-dependency of logind+systemd on #gentoo-desktop and why they thought different. Apparently GDM 3.8 assumes that an init system will also clean up any processes it started. This is what systemd does, but OpenRC didn’t support that. Systemd was adopted because it was (and still is) simply super…

It might be because people did report on in trying to run GNOME 3.8 without logind, and reported massive faults?

And no, not in "GDM doesn't clean up after itself", which was given as explanation for the infamous "systemd now defaults to destroying everything in a session on logout" change few years later. (Which GDM could require anyway earlier, but apparently somehow it wasn't enough)

There is a lot of good ideas that went into systemd though, and I'd agree that a lot of anger is in how badly they are implemented (the only reason I do not complain more about systemctl is because upstart managed to be even worse). In my copious free time, I've been tinkering at alternative, but even if I disagree at the format of systemd service files, it includes a parser for them.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#189

Post by p_l »

mrlonglong wrote: post #182
p_l wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was happy ignoring systemd (and no, not depending on broken debian/redhat rc.d scripts) till my distro gave update that due to GNOME 3.8 they are forced to switch everything to systemd instead of keeping it optional like before. It became a question of "are you going to have GNOME 3.8 or later, or not"

Not really, I currently run Gnome 3.40 without needing systemd on my machine. How? I use Gentoo.

Gentoo devs are sometimes a bit dedicated. Sincerely, long time user of Gentoo :)

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#190

Post by mrlonglong »

kaba0 wrote: post #184
mrlonglong wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But can you run a remote application from another machine on your own machine? This is my biggest obstacle with Wayland. Xorg did it perfectly.

Yes you can with proper compression and usual streaming. X is no longer network transparent anyways (everyone uses proper GPU-acceleration with a litany of bitmaps so it’s not as easy as serialize drawing commands)

So if I SSH into my remote machine, with the appropriate forwarding agents and wayland in place I can run evolution?

Ok I will give that a go.

That reminds me when will Wayland be able to support disparate displays say one big display on 4k with 30 bit colour and two others on QHD and 24 bit colour?

Post reply on HN