Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I Lost My Past (2017)

glineq.blogspot.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 193 posts

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#131

Post by the_af »

refurb wrote: post #119
vidarh wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To really underline this, one should read the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence. Ho Chi Mihn greatly admired many things about the US and so it starts with a quote from the US Declaration of Independence, before it talks about the French revolution, and then attacks the French colonial rule.

I mean sure, but look at the country today. Apparently they didn’t admire it that much.

They had a bloody war with the US after they sided with their colonial oppressors and lost thousands of people to that war; that might have something to do with it.

The US policy in Vietnam boiled down to one thing: body count. US only real measure of success was how many Vietcong/PAVN they killed; and because they had no way of telling the difference -- nor did they care much -- this effectively meant "kill as many Vietnamese as possible" (they were encouraged to consider any casualty as VC, overrepresenting their numbers). And to top it out, they engaged in massive forced resettlement, pillage, rape, destroyed foliage and the ecosystem, and poisoned the land.

Think about it.

Americans living in Vietnam claim the Vietnamese don't hate them. Even ex veterans visiting the country report this. That's pretty amazing all things considered.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#132

Post by the_af »

elurg wrote: post #63
thaumasiotes wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self rule, just like you'd think. The CCP's primary claim to legitimacy is that they kicked out the Japanese. They were a little late to get to kick out the Manchus.

> Self rule, just like you'd think. Is Vietnam in any way "more independent" today than if the north had lost? It makes sense if you claim to fight the Americans because they're evil capitalists but Vietnam turned around to adopt chinese-style reforms and is now mostly friendly towards the US. > The CCP's primary claim to legitimacy is that they kicked out the Japanese. The CCP is in power because they defeated the K…

> Is Vietnam in any way "more independent" today than if the north had lost?

Yes.

> and is now mostly friendly towards the US.

Independence works like that. When you let a country decide instead of forcing by military power, they might even choose to like you -- or at least, not hate you.

The US and Britain are friends and allies in modern times, after all.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#133

Post by trasz »

DarylZero wrote: post #121
trasz wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most (almost all) party people back them didn’t get anyone arrested, they just did their jobs in power plants, schools, and cheese factories, just like they would in the west. Same as googlers today. Sure, some did evil things. Again, just like in the west it’s easy to make money by hurting others. My point is, the perceived difference between those is really just the narrative, the way they are being described in po…

The USA especially has roughly the same proportion of its people imprisoned as totalitarian regimes, but those people are so dehumanized socially that they are impossible to imagine as even a part of this discussion. I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a woman in NYC who migrated from some former USSR country and worked as a domestic servant -- she called working for such low wage in such conditions "communism.…

USA has a number of things in common with most totalitarian regimes, from forced labour camps, to the creepy “pledge of allegiance to the state” which all the school kids are forced to recite every day. It’s quite creepy from the European point of view.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#134

Post by adrian_b »

mmarq wrote: post #59
elurg wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defending a communist regime purely on nationalist grounds ignores the whole point of communism. Today Vietnam and China having mostly-capitalist economies so what was really the purpose of their revolutions?

In fact all communist revolutions, bar the Russian, were nationalist/liberation revolutions or at least started like that. Then they became oppressive regimes (and that was the point since the beginning, maybe).

I hope that you do not count what happened in most Eastern European countries as communist or liberation revolutions.

There the communists were installed to power by the invading Russian army, even if false revolutionary and liberation histories were made up after the facts.

The few places where there were indeed communists fighting for liberation, i.e. Tito in Yugoslavia or Enver Hoxha in Albania, so they had some legitimacy, were precisely the places which later escaped from being under strict Russian control.

For Yugoslavia and Albania, what you say seems to apply.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#135

Post by trasz »

refurb wrote: post #122
trasz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Kind of, but the big difference is getting rich (enough to afford a luxury lifestyle) in the West is more accessible. In the other system, you were either connected or not. If not, you were likely SOL. Look at Musk. You think a communist country would tolerate a foreigner who became a billionaire and calls out politicians in a public forum? Maybe ask Jack Ma how his moderate comments were received. I had an acquainta…

Quite the opposite - in the west you won’t realistically get really rich unless your family is already rich (see Musk). In communist countries you can just become a party member and then go up the ladder; see most polish leaders from those times.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#136

Post by moksly »

refurb wrote: post #102
moksly wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the sort of distorting of history the article speaks about. Vietnam was invaded by the French in the 1800 and turned into a colony. That colony was lost, and then semi-regained over the course of WW2 and the years following. When the French lost and withdrew, America invaded and was subsequently beaten. This is not a defence of China or Russia, look at how they are invading Tibet and the Ukraine, but the Viet…

No, you’re distorting history. After the communist victory at Dien Bien Phu, the French negotiated a peace (without much choice) that forced them to give up the North (where the communists were strongest). The French slowly disengaged from the South over the next decade leaving a fragile Vietnamese government in the South that had no interest in joining the communists in the North (1 million fled during partition). T…

English is not my first language so maybe fabrication is the wrong word? I didn’t mean fabrication as in it didn’t exist, but that it wouldn’t have existed without the US.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#137

Post by torginus »

_ugfj wrote: post #115
torginus wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you want hopelessness I suggest you live in contemporary capitalist Hungary - in many ways, the country's fate is similar to the one described in the article, it has turned into a Western vassal, where nothing worth having, no company with meaningful profits is actually owned by Hungarians. The problems about life you've described in your post are still valid today - we the country has become a nearshore col…

I have spent weeks and months even on and off since 2009 in Hungary. Last visit, albeit just two days long, ended today, actually. I am well versed in the neofeudalism that Orban has wrought. And yet, look at my dates -- Orban is a symptom of much worse. I do not know where you grew up but the playgrounds were fucking dystopian. Do you remember the ping-pong tables? I do. I remember them all too well. They were raw c…

Regardless of the particular merits of Socialism/Capitalism, I think we agree on the main point - the replacement of the Soviet system didn't significantly (if at all) improve the lives of it's former citizens - the main advantage seems to be it's easier to emigrate from it.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#138

Post by gostsamo »

selimthegrim wrote: post #26
gostsamo wrote: post #25

[flagged]

In West Curtain is popularly understood as “Stettin to Trieste”

The west can have its opinions, but I don't think that it is nuanced enough when it comes to stuff outside of its boarders. Yugoslavia is not the Warsaw pact, and the Warsaw pact countries were different from each other and from the USSR.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#139

Post by refurb »

trasz wrote: post #135
refurb wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of, but the big difference is getting rich (enough to afford a luxury lifestyle) in the West is more accessible. In the other system, you were either connected or not. If not, you were likely SOL. Look at Musk. You think a communist country would tolerate a foreigner who became a billionaire and calls out politicians in a public forum? Maybe ask Jack Ma how his moderate comments were received. I had an acquainta…

Quite the opposite - in the west you won’t realistically get really rich unless your family is already rich (see Musk). In communist countries you can just become a party member and then go up the ladder; see most polish leaders from those times.

How do you define “rich”? I’m talking affording those things the elite in communist countries had - consumer goods, foreign vacations, your own house. Those are all accessible by the middle to middle-upper class in the West.

And no, party membership is not guaranteed to make you rich. And membership is not easy to get.

Re: I Lost My Past (2017)

#140

Post by refurb »

the_af wrote: post #131
refurb wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean sure, but look at the country today. Apparently they didn’t admire it that much.

They had a bloody war with the US after they sided with their colonial oppressors and lost thousands of people to that war; that might have something to do with it. The US policy in Vietnam boiled down to one thing: body count. US only real measure of success was how many Vietcong/PAVN they killed; and because they had no way of telling the difference -- nor did they care much -- this effectively meant "kill as many…

Wait, what? Because they had a bloody war they couldn’t actually deliver what they promised?

I mean we’re nearly 50 years past their victory? When are they going to “enact the American rights Ho Chi Minh showed so much admiration for”?

Post reply on HN