Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases? • Hacker News Board

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#221

Post by kube-system » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 12:42 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #196

kube-system wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Response was the first thing that came to mind reading your initial post. I bet you have a full-time fire service close by your building. 70% of the firefighters in the US are volunteers. I can think of several multistory apartment buildings that I know are in volunteer fire department districts off the top of my head. And it’s not like I memorize fire districts.

Volunteer firefighters live in rural areas and mostly serve farm and shall towns. Every suburb I've lived in has full time firefighters. Most people live in cities and suburbs not rural areas.

There are about as many people in rural areas with volunteer fire departments as there are people in non-rural areas with volunteer fire departments.

17% of the US lives in a rural area. 32% of the US population is covered by a volunteer fire department. There are plenty of suburbs with VFDs, often lower-income.

https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Data-research-and-too...

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#222

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 12:52 PM UTC

fivea wrote: post #194

stickfigure wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A security camera in the building showed that Tanimoto tossed a bag, probably containing petrol, at the emergency exit. Tape is also believed to have been used to impede the use of the door. It is believed this was done so that clinic occupants would have a hard time evacuating. Investigators also found evidence of additional traps in the building.[21][22] The suspect was found to possess a knife, and blocked a perso…

> When you have someone deliberately setting fires and blocking the escape routes with a knife, you have bigger problems than just one stairwell. The software world is well versed in the concept of a single point of failure, and the importance of eliminating it and mitigating any chance. And yet here we are downplaying a critical design problem because it was a single point of failure?

[deleted]

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#223

Post by KptMarchewa » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 12:53 PM UTC

Gigablah wrote: post #65

voisin wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just because you wanted to milk 4 apts instead of 3 on a floor. You realize that this would mean the three residents would have to pay more for their unit, right? It isn’t just developers “milking” condo buyers or tenants. It has to do with efficiency.

People pay more for units all the time for various reasons - location, orientation, superstition, etc. I’m sure they’ll add “not suffocating to death during a fire” to the list.

Pay more related to the average cost. The point is to lower the average cost by providing more units.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#224

Post by kube-system » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 12:53 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #188

kube-system wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cars are designed to intentionally accelerate you to speeds that easily kill you And buildings in North America are often framed out of the same material that they burn in their fireplaces. Both present inherent dangers. Both have widespread safety regulations for this reason. Vehicle accidents are the 2nd leading cause of accidental death in the US and fires are 6th. And this is the result of many decades of both…

And I still find it surreal that people in world's richest country live in wooden houses. People still die in scary numbers there no matter the regulations. Cars can't be made safer anymore. 60Mphs frontal collisions have single digit percentage survivability chance because physics. Homes can be made much safer by building them differently.

Wood tends to get a lot of criticism on the internet as a building material, but it has advantages as well.

Cars can absolutely be made safer. They certainly haven’t stopped getting safer yet.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#225

Post by nkrisc » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 12:53 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #21

rococode wrote: post #7

Here's something that happened one week ago, a perfect (and sad) example of what happens when you only have one set of stairs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire > The victims gasped for air and had difficulties escaping, as there was only one escape route, with the emergency stairs and elevators being located outside the clinic. > Experts were surprised by the fire's high death toll. The authorit…

A security camera in the building showed that Tanimoto tossed a bag, probably containing petrol, at the emergency exit. Tape is also believed to have been used to impede the use of the door. It is believed this was done so that clinic occupants would have a hard time evacuating. Investigators also found evidence of additional traps in the building.[21][22] The suspect was found to possess a knife, and blocked a perso…

It doesn’t matter if it’s a person with a knife blocking the exit, or fallen debris. An exit can be blocked by anything, that’s why it’s important to have multiple escape routes.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#226

Post by nkrisc » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 12:58 PM UTC

landemva wrote: post #127

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of regulations are designed to make new construction as expensive as possible and limit usable floor space as much as possible. No one should be surprised that fire safety laws are going to the extreme for safety at a large cost to floor space.

Municipalities in USA are adopting code for residential new construction to require sprinklers. Big cost that most people won't do anything to stop it because it is only for really big houses (for now). In fifteen years people will wonder why new housing is so expensive and every size house has sprinklers which the homeowner must hire someone to maintain. And pay for sprinkler inspection report prior to resale. On a…

For what it’s worth, I used to think the same as you regarding cars, but since many of those features are required now you can’t find a new car without them. So I had to get them, and turns out, they’re pretty useful.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#227

Post by montroser » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:09 PM UTC

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #208

rococode wrote: post #7

Here's something that happened one week ago, a perfect (and sad) example of what happens when you only have one set of stairs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire > The victims gasped for air and had difficulties escaping, as there was only one escape route, with the emergency stairs and elevators being located outside the clinic. > Experts were surprised by the fire's high death toll. The authorit…

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire Good point. But to be fair, you should consider the injuries and deaths caused by elderly falling off stairs - 1M injuries, 12,000 deaths in the US alone. [0] Compared that with 3,700 deaths and 16,600 injuries for ALL fires, not just fires in buildings [1]. My view would be that stairs KILL, and that new buildings should avoid stairs (at least, within a single…

It would be far-fetched to think that having a second staircase for egress would result in additional deaths. More staircases does not cause more traversals of staircases.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#228

Post by Sharlin » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

fivea wrote: post #194

stickfigure wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A security camera in the building showed that Tanimoto tossed a bag, probably containing petrol, at the emergency exit. Tape is also believed to have been used to impede the use of the door. It is believed this was done so that clinic occupants would have a hard time evacuating. Investigators also found evidence of additional traps in the building.[21][22] The suspect was found to possess a knife, and blocked a perso…

> When you have someone deliberately setting fires and blocking the escape routes with a knife, you have bigger problems than just one stairwell. The software world is well versed in the concept of a single point of failure, and the importance of eliminating it and mitigating any chance. And yet here we are downplaying a critical design problem because it was a single point of failure?

As always, you have to balance the risk of a crazy trap-setting knifeman attack with the (opportunity) cost of building additional escape routes.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#229

Post by Sharlin » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #15

rococode wrote: post #7

Here's something that happened one week ago, a perfect (and sad) example of what happens when you only have one set of stairs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire > The victims gasped for air and had difficulties escaping, as there was only one escape route, with the emergency stairs and elevators being located outside the clinic. > Experts were surprised by the fire's high death toll. The authorit…

Yea, every fire code I know how requires a minimum of 2 escape route for occupancy

As the article states, there are lots of Western countries (including mine) that do not require a second stairwell for midrise apartment buildings. It's not a theoretical question. In a properly compartmentalized apartment building, you should not exit your apartment unless it's the one that's on fire.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#230

Post by Sharlin » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

rcthompson wrote: post #126

I live in an apartment with 2 staircases, an elevator, and a fire escape. Several months ago, there was a fire in a first floor apartment that blocked me from using ALL of them, via either unbreathable smoke or flames. I ended up just hiding in my room until the fire department dealt with it. I'm not sure whether this argues for more staircases or fewer. (In hindsight I did have other options, but this was my first f…

If the building is properly compartmentalized, you're supposed to stay in your apartment in case of a fire (unless yours is the one that's on fire, obviously!)