Turkey's Financial Crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: Turkey's Financial Crisis

#171

Post by SahAssar » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 2:13 AM UTC

Bayart wrote: post #100

smnrchrds wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Islam was acceptable (as Turkey was attempting to be a "free" republic), but not compulsory. Until Erdogan overturned it, there was a ban on women wearing hijab (the head covering , that the vast majority of Muslims consider a basic tenet of their religion) in universities in Turkey. I leave the judgment to you, but personally I wouldn't consider asking millions of people to choose between adhering to their religio…

I would feel extremely comfortable banning those head coverings from all universities, if not all public venues. Religious vestment simply has no place outside of ritual occasions. But then again, I'm from the country Atatürk took after. From our point of view, allowing religion to exist is treating it with tolerance. Acknowledging religion as something that deserves any sort of deference by the State isn't acceptabl…

> Religious vestment simply has no place outside of ritual occasions.

Where would you draw the line between religious and cultural? I assume you would have no problem with people wearing traditional clothes? What about traditional amish clothing? Would a buddhist be allowed to wear a rakusu? Could a Scandinavian raise a maypole even though it was a design that was meant to christianize a previously pagan religion but is now not seen as religious? Would file-sharing not be allowed since kopimism is an official religion in some countries? Would symbols not originally rooted in religion but later adopted by them be allowed?

I'd be really interested to know where you draw the line.

Re: Turkey's Financial Crisis

#172

Post by SahAssar » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 2:30 AM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #94

jcfrei wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any source on that claim that Obama was behind the coup attempt in 2016?

There are never any sources on these things until 20 years after the fact. So we really don't know. But if you'd gone ahead and assumed America had a hand in every coup in the Western world over the past century, you'd at least have a pretty good batting average.

You're not wrong, but it is still wrong to claim blame for specific events without evidence. The comment you are replying to clearly asked for specifics.

Re: Turkey's Financial Crisis

#173

Post by kranke155 » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 2:35 AM UTC

throwaway123x2 wrote: post #107

Can anyone cite Muslim economists or theorista who endorse Erdogan's scheme? A vague "we don't do interest because Islam bans usury" hardly sounds like good policy. What is the Islamic alternative to the current macroeconomic framework?

They charge interest through other ways in “Islamic banking”. That’s all I know about it. Basically financial engineering, ends up in a be same way. Afaik there is no Islamic economics, just a bunch of funny business to avoid going against the religion. Same system in most places.

Re: Turkey's Financial Crisis

#174

Post by kranke155 » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 2:37 AM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #89

The worse crisis Turkey has now, the better it is for its future. The policies of a charismatic autocrat must publicly and catastrophically fail, vaccinating the country against such types and returning the county on the secular track. In democratic countries, people can rebuild from any crisis, so any dark period is temporary. In theological autocracies darkness has no end, and future gives no hope.

This is the whole point of democracies, you can throw people like this out.

Unfortunately for the Turkish people, you can push people pretty far in a well managed dictatorship - ie Belarus, Venezuela - and continue in power. This is why having dictators is never a good idea, you can’t replace them when they stop having any purpose.

Re: Turkey's Financial Crisis

#175

Post by ejanus » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 2:59 AM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #130

HideousKojima wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saudi Arabia. Russia supports Assad and has no interest in destabilizing the country because they want to maintain their naval base at Latakia etc.

Turkey is at least as much at fault as Saudi Arabia. They literally straight up pay salaries to wahabbi terrorists. The US also financed a lot of them.

Until Trump appeared on the scene. You missed that out.

Re: Turkey's Financial Crisis

#176

Post by ejanus » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 3:05 AM UTC

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #44

justicezyx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That country is Russian, right? Or Saudi Arabia? I am not very familiar with Syria situation. Purely a honest question.

The Syrian conflict, though deliberately obfuscated, was probably primarily a conflict between Russia-backed Iran and US-backed Saudi Arabia. Wahabism is an arm of the latter.

I was thinking that it was engineered because Assad refused to allow Qatar South Par gas pipelines from criss crossing his country on its way to Europe. The arreas occupied by ISIS terror group in Iraq and Syria were actually areas meant for South Par gas pipelines. South Par gas would have freed Europe from Russia energy dependency.

Re: Turkey's Financial Crisis

#177

Post by azth » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 3:13 AM UTC

Bayart wrote: post #100

smnrchrds wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Islam was acceptable (as Turkey was attempting to be a "free" republic), but not compulsory. Until Erdogan overturned it, there was a ban on women wearing hijab (the head covering , that the vast majority of Muslims consider a basic tenet of their religion) in universities in Turkey. I leave the judgment to you, but personally I wouldn't consider asking millions of people to choose between adhering to their religio…

I would feel extremely comfortable banning those head coverings from all universities, if not all public venues. Religious vestment simply has no place outside of ritual occasions. But then again, I'm from the country Atatürk took after. From our point of view, allowing religion to exist is treating it with tolerance. Acknowledging religion as something that deserves any sort of deference by the State isn't acceptabl…

> I would feel extremely comfortable banning those head coverings from all universities, if not all public venues.

Good thing you're not in a position to make such a call then.

> Religious vestment simply has no place outside of ritual occasions

The Hijab is not merely a "religious vestment" as the seculars and atheists foolishly seem to think. It's a way of life, a way of showing purity and piety.

> Acknowledging religion as something that deserves any sort of deference by the State isn't acceptable. And I say that as an otherwise religious person myself (don't take it as the stance of some rabid atheist).

I'm going to assume you're a Christian, and I'm not surprised, your religion has been relegated to the sidelines when it comes to anything relevant in terms of running society. And they convinced you to keep it that way.

Let me ask you this: do you have an issue with homosexuals and transexuals showing their propaganda in public?

Re: Turkey's Financial Crisis

#178

Post by ejanus » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 3:15 AM UTC

darkhorn wrote: post #126

janmo wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how long their pump will last, their USD reserves are now exhausted, their new savings plan will also cost a fortune.

They are going to continue selling land and military companies to Qatar and other Arabs.

Links or examples

Re: Turkey's Financial Crisis

#179

Post by azth » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 3:33 AM UTC

hereforphone wrote: post #2

Erdoğan claims that lowering interest rates to zero or near zero is more in line with Islamic principles, which may be true (according to interpretation of Islamic principles, I assume). This is a bold move that reinforces what was already suspected: he is continuing to solidify his power by appealing to Islamic sympathies. During the recent coup calls to resist the belligerents were broadcast over mosque loudspeaker…

> according to interpretation of Islamic principles, I assume

It's literally in the Quran:

* https://quran.com/2/275

* https://quran.com/3/130

And the Hadiths:

* https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1615

* https://sunnah.com/bulugh/7/62

This isn't a matter of interpretation.

Re: Turkey's Financial Crisis

#180

Post by azth » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 3:41 AM UTC

kranke155 wrote: post #173

throwaway123x2 wrote: post #107

Can anyone cite Muslim economists or theorista who endorse Erdogan's scheme? A vague "we don't do interest because Islam bans usury" hardly sounds like good policy. What is the Islamic alternative to the current macroeconomic framework?

They charge interest through other ways in “Islamic banking”. That’s all I know about it. Basically financial engineering, ends up in a be same way. Afaik there is no Islamic economics, just a bunch of funny business to avoid going against the religion. Same system in most places.

Those schemes that attempt to bypass usury by calling it something else are not Islamic. Many scholars have called them out.

Proper Islamic finance involves risk from both parties. E.g. one party provides funding, the other provides labor, if the project succeeds, they both reap the rewards. If it doesn't, then the first party loses money and the second the labor.

Islam very clearly calls out schemes to construct loopholes to bypass prohibition. One such transaction is that of the Einah sale: one party sells an item for a certain amount to be paid by installments (say sells a car for $12,000 to be paid $1000 per month over the next year), then the same party buys the same car for $10,000 cash. What ended up happening is that party B owes party A $12,000 to be paid over the year, but they received $10K cash. This is absolutely forbidden. Similarly, any scheme that stitches together a series of individually permissible transactions to come up with an overall transaction that mimics interest is absolutely forbidden as well. We don't have loopholes in Islam.