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Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

gavinhoward.com

261–270 of 284 posts

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#261

These articles never clearly state what problem they want to solve. Some candidates that seem obliquely implied: - That you personally don't feel motivated to make OSS because of the way it's structured. Of course no one can fault you for that; that's the default position. Same for me and, say, juggling. But should the ecosystem really reorient itself around encouraging you--and specifically you--to participate? - Th…

Author here. > These articles never clearly state what problem they want to solve. Sorry. The problem is that I want my software to do more good than bad, and I'm not sure it will. > (There was also something in this article about ads in paid products, which I also find obnoxious, but that seems like a non sequitur? Did I miss something there?) I see ads as harm, harm through manipulation. I know the article was not…

> I see ads as harm, harm through manipulation.

Like pollution, right? You working or not on FOSS isn't going to make a difference. Demand that ads be taxed/banned/regulated -- like pollution -- and hey, that's an activity you could do to fill time not spent working on FOSS, so that your not working on FOSS actually does make a difference!

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One skill that I’ve learned, over the years, is to say “no,” in a calm, respectful manner. Works a charm. The “calm and respectful” part is important. I can be right ornery, and learned, the hard way, that OS projects are more fragile than commercial ones, so enemies can do a lot of damage. I have written software for a fairly … pithy … demographic, and have dealt with feedback that would make many FOSS authors hide…

I've not found a good heuristic for saying "no". Most issues are valid issues. I can see the benefits, they might even benefit future me. The hardest part for me is actually saying no, because it's never that black/white. I might work on it later because I want to help. I might stumble into a use case where I now need this feature and then do it. Someone might make a PR. But each "open ended issue" is still bandwidth…

I've learned the skill. I had to.

However, you are correct about that "using bandwidth" thing.

If we publish something, then I think it behooves us to make it clear what users/adopters of our work can expect from us.

I tend to use the MIT license ("You can do what you want, but don't come crying to me."). I also make every effort to make the project as understandable and well-documented as possible. I appreciate feedback, and apply it, if I deem it fitting.

I have only had one project "go viral," so to speak. It's a fairly big deal, nowadays. It was taken over by a new team, and they had very little trouble getting up to speed on it, because of the quality of the code and documentation. Thousands of folks around the world, use it every day. It's become a fairly vital infrastructure component, for a certain demographic.

The best thing I ever did, with that project, was get the hell away from it, as soon as I was confident the new team was good.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not reverse bounty or charge these entitled users for fixes and change requests? If they want the patch or improvement, they should pay for it. Log4J CVE might have been the perfect use case for asking for 50K-1M EURO for the maintainers to patch the bug, to any corporate clients this is a drop in the bucket.

That starts to sound suspiciously like an extortion racket.

Capitalism is just one big extortion racket. Pending to move to fully automated luxury space communism, that's what people need to do to succeed in the economic incentive structure we've created.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appropriated generally means taking without the authority to do so, which isn't true with free software. It can also mean to take exclusive control of, which somewhat works with further changes being proprietary. I thought the use was fine.

So the case of tiktok taking OBS and building closed product on it wasn't 'taking without authority to do so'?

Groups breaking the license is relatively uncommon, and even now it's possible that tiktok will rectify the violation. I didn't get the feeling you were focusing on license violators with your comment, but if you were I guess either definition works.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#265
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software needs to be maintained to be useful. Proofs don't. So for many, it is not the same.

Try reading a 19th century or earlier math paper and then tell us again that proofs don't need maintenance...

Considering most software written in the 20th century no longer works in a modern environment, I feel like having to go several lifetimes back kind of proves the point.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#266
post #16

Yes, The most important thing of FOSS has always been about ensuring an alternative to closed source. This provides people with leverage in negotiation with the corporations and states in a way they simply would not have without it. Beyond this, It provides a pathway for a much quicker evolution of the products, something actually driven by the most driven users, instead of corporates approved. Writing this on firefo…

Nice theory. Sadly the reality is we have very little leverage against the huge corporations which have been helped to their monopoly status on the back of open source software.

Consider how much less influence people would have without it. Microsoft has been forced to backtrack on customer exploitative shit multiple times due to the very real threat that it would lead to linux getting a huge boost.

Without a functional Linux Desktops for users, there is no doubt to my mind the windows app store wouldn't be the only way to install apps on windows and there would be no way to sell an app that installed on windows without paying microsoft the standard 30% of total sales. The recent fight between steam and microsoft illustrates this perfectly. But they have tried every few years, claiming anti virus, child protection, anti piracy, convenience, anti spyware, anti ransomware, and well its always been the pro microsoft profit in reality ... But they lost each time, because each time too many of its users just threatened to move to linux. This is essentially the only reason you can install, run, and develop apps on windows without everystep including microsoft fees and licenses today.

Look at how stagnant and shitty matlab used to be, and its exorbitant priced to understand what happens when FOSS fails to provide. The niche matlab used is the, at the time, almost non-existent overlap between FOSS programmers good at both GUI UX, tutorial writing, and math. This changed with the FOSS python, numpy, scipy, matplotlib, and pytorch projects. Matlab has gotten extremely much better in the last few years, and its mostly because they finally got competition, they have also started to rapidly drop their effective prices for new users, but its too little too late, and it will never return to the stagnant cashcow it used to be. Matlab was is a troll sitting on a shitty toll bridge while both trying to destroy similar bridges and maintaining its own toll bridge as little as possible. In the last decade FOSS mortally wounded it in passing.

Inversely reduced FOSS influence predicts exploitation. as shown by how astonishingly bad the walled gardens of consoles and phones are. They have gotten away with being astonishingly shit, mostly because FOSS was intentionally and successfully made too hard to use on them.

But these are just visible examples. The great effect of FOSS has never been what it brings about, it is in what it prevents from occurring in the first place, and that, by definition, will never be easily visible.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#267
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software needs to be maintained to be useful. Proofs don't. So for many, it is not the same.

Some software does. Most probably wouldn’t if the author could be convinced to stop when it was done. Personally, I’ve shipped several open source libraries that are still in use in lots of places despite me not having added a commit in over 10 years. They do the thing, don’t do anything else, don’t depend on other stuff, and thus don’t have a lot of surface to attack. Imagine if the log4j guys had built their thing…

> Most probably wouldn’t if the author could be convinced to stop when it was done.

It's nice to view software as something that can be done. I cringe when people look at activity on commits and think that if there isn't continuous activity, the project is dead. Maybe, but it might also be complete.

My most successful open source project in terms of adoption (it's packaged in nearly every distro) is one that is done. I wrote it about 10 years ago and other than one small bugfix it hasn't seen any activity since. It's useful, it's complete, nothing more to do.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#268

For me open source is like math. You don't work on math so that people will thank you for working on math. You don't expect people using math you developed contributing back to math or paying you. You get paid however you managed to organize getting paid. And work on the math for the math and nothing else. If you have other expectations maybe you'll find other endeavours more fulfilling. Which is sad but it is what i…

And that's how you end up with FOSS that has the user experience of math, and the documentation style of math. :)

By the "documentation style of math" I assume you mean the emphasis on giving precise definitions and providing elegant and crystal-clear explanations. :)

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#269
post #66
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find thins point of view equally absurd as all the abuse on maintenners of Foss. It is standard for production code to rely on third party libraries. Not just standard, but the opposite is considered bad thing - you are not supposed to implement everything from scratch. If you do, you will end up with more bugs and issues. There is nothing, absolutely nothing in development last 30 years that would say "it is bad t…

Yep. Log4Shell and Heartbleed were nasty security bugs, but imagine living in a world where every single software shop wrote their own logging libraries or SSL libraries. 99% of them would have far worse vulnerabilities. It would be like '90s php cowboy coding.

Funnily enough that would make the world more secure since a security problem found in one logging library might not be a security problem in another logging library. So you have thousands of firewalls instead of a single point of failure (the shared library). Making it very expensive for the attacker.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#270
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Log4Shell and Heartbleed were nasty security bugs, but imagine living in a world where every single software shop wrote their own logging libraries or SSL libraries. 99% of them would have far worse vulnerabilities. It would be like '90s php cowboy coding.

Absent open source we would all be buying those libraries from small software shops just as happened in the ninieties before OS become so prevelant.

Exactly. And the people maintaining it would be paid to do it. Instead of complaining about nobody paying them.
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