Tesla bows to pressure, stops allowing drivers to play video games while driving • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla bows to pressure, stops allowing drivers to play video games while driving

#111

Post by leobg » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 11:02 PM UTC

justapassenger wrote: post #95

leobg wrote: post #89

I think what they did was the same as Waze. It warns against playing while driving and asks you to confirm that you’re the passenger. In other words, the software treats you as an adult. Someone who lease correct me if that is not how it was implemented. I’ve never tried to play a game while driving, for obvious reasons. If we need software to kindergarten us against endangering ourselves and others, we have much big…

You really don’t see a difference between manufacturer installed and advertised feature, on a main screen in the car, that also contains legally mandated functions like speedometer VS 3rd party app on a 3rd party accessory? Especially if that feature comes from a company that’s known to overhype their self driving abilities? Comparing that to kindergarten from software is like complaining that when you build new hous…

Sure. I totally get how this looks, given the headlines. But it makes no sense to me. Tesla has no financial reason to allow drivers to trick the car into loading a game by falsely clicking the “Passenger” button. On the contrary. If a customer does this and crashes the car while playing a game, it would cause a lot of bad press for Tesla. Locking games would be the easier path for Tesla. Limiting Autopilot speed to the exact speed limit of the road would also be the easier path for Tesla. Heck, not publicly striving for FSD and getting “egg on their face” when it takes longer than expected would be the easier path for Tesla.

Why are they not doing the easier thing?

Re: Tesla bows to pressure, stops allowing drivers to play video games while driving

#112

Post by Dylan16807 » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 11:23 PM UTC

pandaman wrote: post #109

Dylan16807 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where big, high contrast cards are moving around I feel like this is really a reach. The passenger is using their hands to move around those little cards, and I don't think that sounds any more distracting than half the things they could be doing like gesturing while talking or fidgeting slightly. Sonic would be bad, solitaire on a touch screen isn't bad unless the driver tries to play.

The passenger is supposed to play these games by touching the only screen in the car, the one that driver also uses for speed and navigation indications? Indeed, the size of the cards does not matter in this case, it's already distracting. I thought they have some gamepads for these games.

> speed

Depends on the model. Though that's a stupid design even without any games.

> navigation indications

Not a critical feature, and can be done without a screen. Also, huh, that's constant movement you'd be getting rid of isn't it.

Re: Tesla bows to pressure, stops allowing drivers to play video games while driving

#113

Post by spurgu » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

laumars wrote: post #63

mechinn wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if any research has been done about safety around touch controls? It's so much easier to reach over and hit a physical button or rotate a physical dial that you know is in the same spot every time without having to look at it compared to a touch interface that will by adjust depending on the app running. Like I appreciate the power that something like Apple CarPlay and Android Auto bring to the infotainment…

I completely agree. Years ago when smart phones were just emerging, people made the same complaints about them too; saying you cannot walk and text at the same time like you could with the old feature phones with physical keyboards. I believe public opinion was so vocal about this draw back that were some research projects done using gel screens that could offer a tactile responses dynamically. But then all that seam…

> Years ago when smart phones were just emerging, people made the same complaints about them too; saying you cannot walk and text at the same time

I'm still annoyed by this when texting while driving and having to look at the screen.

Downvote all you like, your moral judgement is not gonna change what I do.

I loved the T9 keyboard in my right hand and steering wheel in the left. I'm good at steering with my left knee (unless we're talking slow speeds and bendy road) so taking my hands off is not an issue - the issue is taking my eyes off the road, constantly switching between road/phone/road/phone, which is annoying as fuck.

Re: Tesla bows to pressure, stops allowing drivers to play video games while driving

#114

Post by pandaman » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #112

pandaman wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The passenger is supposed to play these games by touching the only screen in the car, the one that driver also uses for speed and navigation indications? Indeed, the size of the cards does not matter in this case, it's already distracting. I thought they have some gamepads for these games.

> speed Depends on the model. Though that's a stupid design even without any games. > navigation indications Not a critical feature, and can be done without a screen. Also, huh, that's constant movement you'd be getting rid of isn't it.

Not sure what you meant by "Also, huh, that's constant movement you'd be getting rid of isn't it." this does not quite parse in the context or by itself. I suppose it's somehow related to navigation? Navigation is quite useful in other cars and it does not create constant high frequency motion in the cars I've seen.

Re: Tesla bows to pressure, stops allowing drivers to play video games while driving

#115

Post by Dylan16807 » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 12:14 AM UTC

pandaman wrote: post #114

Dylan16807 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> speed Depends on the model. Though that's a stupid design even without any games. > navigation indications Not a critical feature, and can be done without a screen. Also, huh, that's constant movement you'd be getting rid of isn't it.

Not sure what you meant by "Also, huh, that's constant movement you'd be getting rid of isn't it." this does not quite parse in the context or by itself. I suppose it's somehow related to navigation? Navigation is quite useful in other cars and it does not create constant high frequency motion in the cars I've seen.

The average navigation display moves more than the average game of solitaire.

High-movement games are in a different category entirely, of course, but apparently those only work stopped.

Re: Tesla bows to pressure, stops allowing drivers to play video games while driving

#116

Post by zeusk » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 12:33 AM UTC

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #66

zeusk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or basically outsource driving to some 3rd world country?

No need we have poor people at home, as the gig economy has shown.

Ah, so uber for your own car.

Re: Tesla bows to pressure, stops allowing drivers to play video games while driving

#117

Post by vanusa » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 2:05 AM UTC

leobg wrote: post #110

vanusa wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't that the software is overprotective. But that these companies specifically (fraudulently) market these assisted driving capabilities as providing more safety / autonomy than they actually do. By giving these features names like "Autopilot" when it's just L2 for example. It isn't the drivers, but rather the companies that need to be "kindergartened". Or in my view simply shut down by this point.

I don’t see anything fraudulent. Self driving is hard. Nobody has ever done it. It’s akin to the first moon landing. You can’t fault the people trying to get there for missing deadlines. When I build an app, I always underestimate how long it’s going to take. I get to some local maximum and think “one more week and I’ll be there”. Then I discover that, to get from 80% perfect to 90% perfect, I need to backtrack and t…

Look up Andrej Karpathy on GitHub

I'm not worried about Karpathy, but rather Musk, whose public conduct is positively unhinged.

And I know that even Elon cannot predict when we can take off that steering wheel.

Which must be why he said that autonomous driving was "basically a solved problem" back in 2016. Less than a month after that Model S plowed into an oncoming truck, which Autopilot thought was a stretch of bright sky -- killing its driver.

They know they are right.

This being the very worst kind of hubris - which has always led to outcomes far more foolish and destructive than the simple lust for money.

They are wrestling Nature.

And as we have seen, regulations (what you seem to refer to as "public opinion"). And per the article below, with the advice of his own engineers, as well.

From: https://archive.fo/psSYR :

As the guiding force behind Autopilot, Mr. Musk pushed it in directions other automakers were unwilling to take this kind of technology, interviews with 19 people who worked on the project over the last decade show. Mr. Musk repeatedly misled buyers about the services’ abilities, many of those people say. All spoke on the condition of anonymity, fearing retaliation from Mr. Musk and Tesla.

For years, Mr. Musk has said Tesla cars were on the verge of complete autonomy. “The basic news is that all Tesla vehicles leaving the factory have all the hardware necessary for Level 5 autonomy,” he declared in 2016. The statement surprised and concerned some working on the project, since the Society of Automotive Engineers defines Level 5 as full driving automation.

More recently, he has said that new software — currently part of a beta test by a limited number of Tesla owners who have bought the F.S.D. package — will allow cars to drive themselves on city streets as well as highways. But as with Autopilot, Tesla documentation says drivers must keep their hands on the wheel, ready to take control of the car at any time.

Regulators have warned that Tesla and Mr. Musk have exaggerated the sophistication of Autopilot, encouraging some people to misuse it.

“Where I get concerned is the language that’s used to describe the capabilities of the vehicle,” said Jennifer Homendy, chairwoman of the National Transportation Safety Board, which has investigated accidents involving Autopilot and criticized the system’s design. “It can be very dangerous.”

Re: Tesla bows to pressure, stops allowing drivers to play video games while driving

#118

Post by pandaman » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 2:26 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #115

pandaman wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you meant by "Also, huh, that's constant movement you'd be getting rid of isn't it." this does not quite parse in the context or by itself. I suppose it's somehow related to navigation? Navigation is quite useful in other cars and it does not create constant high frequency motion in the cars I've seen.

The average navigation display moves more than the average game of solitaire. High-movement games are in a different category entirely, of course, but apparently those only work stopped.

Not in the cars I drove. Also all the nav screens I've seen were low contrast so they are almost invisible in the peripheral vision, which is not very sensitive to color. I suppose, if Tesla has high contrast, jerking nav map it's fine because there is no other place to show directions (even S and X don't have HUD, so probably no navigation in the dashboard too?) and it might want to attract the driver to the changes in the route.

Re: Tesla bows to pressure, stops allowing drivers to play video games while driving

#119

Post by ehnto » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 5:02 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #105

ehnto wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you're underway there aren't many other things you should be keeping an eye on, but that was an absolutist stance to make a point. I know people are going to be glancing at fuel or temperature or whatever. > I would've said that the speedometer really isn't needed - if you go with traffic and don't hang out in the passing lane, you're never going to get in trouble That's really location specific, and situation…

>10kmph faster in town could be the difference between killing someone or not hitting them at all. I think of the difference between hitting someone and not hitting them as measured in distance, not speed.

Speed determines time to stop including stopping distance and reaction time. For every second of reaction time per 10kmph you add about 4 meters of distance travelled before you even hit the brakes. So best case if you aren't looking at your HVAC, at 50kmph you will start the stopping process in about 28 meters, and at 60kmph it will be 33.3m and take longer to stop once you hit the pegs.

Doesn't sound like heaps but that is actually your margin for error, just 4m. If something jumps out in front of you at 28 meters away, at 50 you will have had 4 meters to stop, which modern cars can do, and at 60 you will hit them at the full 60kmph. The Australian government has some great road safety clips on the subject, I might try and find them.

Re: Tesla bows to pressure, stops allowing drivers to play video games while driving

#120

Post by ehnto » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 5:07 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #106

ehnto wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a lot more important to me to know if I've lost oil pressure or am overheating. > And if the HVAC controls are unnecessary to mess with while driving, they are still not an "edge case". Nor is the radio. I forgot to address these sorry. I've driven some pants cars in my time so I get it, but I'd say you be the judge of just how distracted you are with mechanical worries and if that's a safe amount or not. I th…

There's an implicit message from new cars having lane-keeping features that we as a society (whichever society) are going to compensate for distractions rather than cracking down.

I agree. It's too hard to police without invasive cameras or tracking.