Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases? • Hacker News Board

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#41

Post by vernie » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:41 AM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #21

rococode wrote: post #7

Here's something that happened one week ago, a perfect (and sad) example of what happens when you only have one set of stairs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire > The victims gasped for air and had difficulties escaping, as there was only one escape route, with the emergency stairs and elevators being located outside the clinic. > Experts were surprised by the fire's high death toll. The authorit…

A security camera in the building showed that Tanimoto tossed a bag, probably containing petrol, at the emergency exit. Tape is also believed to have been used to impede the use of the door. It is believed this was done so that clinic occupants would have a hard time evacuating. Investigators also found evidence of additional traps in the building.[21][22] The suspect was found to possess a knife, and blocked a perso…

Similar thing happened at Kyoto Animation in 2019 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Animation_arson_attack)

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#42

Post by stavros » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:43 AM UTC

rococode wrote: post #7

Here's something that happened one week ago, a perfect (and sad) example of what happens when you only have one set of stairs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire > The victims gasped for air and had difficulties escaping, as there was only one escape route, with the emergency stairs and elevators being located outside the clinic. > Experts were surprised by the fire's high death toll. The authorit…

> In 2011, Tanimoto stabbed his own son in the head in an apparent forced suicide.

That's the weirdest euphemism for murder I've ever seen.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#43

Post by throwaway984393 » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:45 AM UTC

Abroszka wrote: post #8

Is it because of the building materials used? I think wood is super common in the US and wood burns easily. If one flat catches fire, all of them do.

The fire risk has very little to do with the material itself, and everything to do with how it's used. Steel buildings can fail even faster than wood once the steel reaches a superheated temperature, and wood can take an exceptionally long time to burn depending on multiple factors, from thickness, to oxygen, to fire travel pathways, to fireproof paneling.

The reason residential buildings are constructed with a given material is usually due to the regional cost of each material. Wood is cheap and plentiful in the USA, and we've adapted it very successfully with modern building codes. But of course that cost changes with scale, as wood is not nearly as strong and light as steel, or as stiff and compressive as concrete. And our somewhat antiquated zoning laws also limit newer construction methods like post-and-beam, which results in larger, cheaper, faster to construct wood-framed homes.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#44

Post by emodendroket » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:51 AM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #21

rococode wrote: post #7

Here's something that happened one week ago, a perfect (and sad) example of what happens when you only have one set of stairs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire > The victims gasped for air and had difficulties escaping, as there was only one escape route, with the emergency stairs and elevators being located outside the clinic. > Experts were surprised by the fire's high death toll. The authorit…

A security camera in the building showed that Tanimoto tossed a bag, probably containing petrol, at the emergency exit. Tape is also believed to have been used to impede the use of the door. It is believed this was done so that clinic occupants would have a hard time evacuating. Investigators also found evidence of additional traps in the building.[21][22] The suspect was found to possess a knife, and blocked a perso…

Sure, but you could say that about any fire where a bunch of people died. There are always "bigger problems" or else there wouldn't be a fire.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#45

Post by emodendroket » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:51 AM UTC

petee wrote: post #33

istinetz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone in the comments is raising the (valid) fire safety argument; however, I'd like to point out that this is a non-obvious trade-off. How many house fires are there? How many of them are in tall buildings? How many of them would block just one stair, and not two? Yes, there is a probability that an extra stair will save your life; however, this is a very tiny probability, against a certainty of extra living spac…

The problem is that you can't track how many disasters were prevented by having two means of egress, so I cant imagine there are real statistics on that I hate the space argument because its a money argument, not a real quality of life issue - make the building 1 floor taller, or don't cram your residents just because you wanted to milk 4 apts instead of 3 on a floor.

Given the popularity of wood construction (5-1s are most of what gets build afaict), I think the main limiter is how big you're allowed to build wood buildings.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#46

Post by Dylan16807 » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:52 AM UTC

If hallways are designated awful, then that middle design definitely shouldn't end with all that dead space. And why is the hallway wider than the right design?

So that's floor space saved: https://i.imgur.com/Z9OdYkE.png

And if it's acceptable to combine staircase and hallway, as long as there's another staircase available, you can do even better: https://i.imgur.com/Wa7p4sy.png

The second might be too risky, but I don't think the first one adds any risk.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#47

Post by throwaway984393 » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:52 AM UTC

I'm curious why they don't just make one open-air stairway, and build ladders into the buildings' walls. Multiple permanent ventilated escape methods.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#48

Post by petee » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:52 AM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #40

petee wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im not sure if I am reading your comment right, but if you're offering a choice of less space or higher survival... I mean, think of all the wasted space and weight having 8 exit doors on a airplane; they don't crash often

Most residential detached multi story houses only have one staircase. If government forced me to give up one bedroom and build an extra staircase, so that I have a slightly higher chance of survival of a very unlikely event, I’d be fucking pissed.

I don't think we are talking about modifing existing buildings or small homes, they are talking towers and large units - a lot of places still count jumping out a residential second floor as an exit, so you'd probably be fine.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#49

Post by emodendroket » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:54 AM UTC

Abroszka wrote: post #19

rococode wrote: post #7

Here's something that happened one week ago, a perfect (and sad) example of what happens when you only have one set of stairs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire > The victims gasped for air and had difficulties escaping, as there was only one escape route, with the emergency stairs and elevators being located outside the clinic. > Experts were surprised by the fire's high death toll. The authorit…

Not really. The wikipage says some pretty disturbing things under the investigation section. No amount of staircases would have helped.

I don't think that's true; the article and the sources it cited specifically cite having only one escape route as a contributing factor.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#50

Post by armada651 » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:55 AM UTC

petee wrote: post #33

istinetz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone in the comments is raising the (valid) fire safety argument; however, I'd like to point out that this is a non-obvious trade-off. How many house fires are there? How many of them are in tall buildings? How many of them would block just one stair, and not two? Yes, there is a probability that an extra stair will save your life; however, this is a very tiny probability, against a certainty of extra living spac…

The problem is that you can't track how many disasters were prevented by having two means of egress, so I cant imagine there are real statistics on that I hate the space argument because its a money argument, not a real quality of life issue - make the building 1 floor taller, or don't cram your residents just because you wanted to milk 4 apts instead of 3 on a floor.

> The problem is that you can't track how many disasters were prevented by having two means of egress, so I cant imagine there are real statistics on that

Why wouldn't you be able to compare statistics from the US to any other country that doesn't have that rule?