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Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

slate.com

21–30 of 309 posts

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#21
post #7

Here's something that happened one week ago, a perfect (and sad) example of what happens when you only have one set of stairs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire > The victims gasped for air and had difficulties escaping, as there was only one escape route, with the emergency stairs and elevators being located outside the clinic. > Experts were surprised by the fire's high death toll. The authorit…

A security camera in the building showed that Tanimoto tossed a bag, probably containing petrol, at the emergency exit. Tape is also believed to have been used to impede the use of the door. It is believed this was done so that clinic occupants would have a hard time evacuating. Investigators also found evidence of additional traps in the building.[21][22] The suspect was found to possess a knife, and blocked a person who tried to run back towards the elevator. The victims, with the path to the exits blocked by fire, went into inner windowless rooms in the back of the clinic where they died.[16]

When you have someone deliberately setting fires and blocking the escape routes with a knife, you have bigger problems than just one stairwell.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#22
post #3

When the hallway is on fire and the only option is the stairs behind you, I really doubt you'll care about the space 'wasted' on them. And in response to Grenfell, the argument is tenants don't like fire drills; just wow. Eventually everyone forgets the reason for regulations...is there a named law for this phenomenon?

Is this basically subsidizing a slightly higher survival rate for a relatively few number of fires with a significant loss of space for everyone?

Why are you qualifying with “slightly” and “relatively few”? Relative to what?

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#23
>>Bobby Fijan, a developer in Philadelphia

I am also sure this developer would love to accept full responsibility should a fire occur in a single stair building that prevented people from evac,

I am sure this developer would not hide behind the building codes, and exclaim they are not liable because the building was "built to code" after lobbing to have the code changed, no no...

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#24
post #10

A staircase takes up about the plan size of one bedroom. If that's too much, you're probably trying to cram too many people into a building. There's efficiency, and then there's, "more people live in this city than can all fit on the sidewalks." Maybe just don't.

I'm surprised that anyone could have that response after reading the article. It is very clearly talking about space wasted primarily in hallways and in the restrictions that requiring two stairways puts on floorplans.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#25
post #7

Here's something that happened one week ago, a perfect (and sad) example of what happens when you only have one set of stairs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire > The victims gasped for air and had difficulties escaping, as there was only one escape route, with the emergency stairs and elevators being located outside the clinic. > Experts were surprised by the fire's high death toll. The authorit…

Everyone in the comments is raising the (valid) fire safety argument; however, I'd like to point out that this is a non-obvious trade-off.

How many house fires are there? How many of them are in tall buildings? How many of them would block just one stair, and not two?

Yes, there is a probability that an extra stair will save your life; however, this is a very tiny probability, against a certainty of extra living space, for everyone, every day.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#26
post #13
post #8

Is it because of the building materials used? I think wood is super common in the US and wood burns easily. If one flat catches fire, all of them do.

Wood is very common in single story houses in the US. Large apartment buildings are made of concrete and steel. The tallest wood framed project I've seen was 3-4 stories with the first two concrete.

Fire codes were recently changed and now buildings with 4 or 5 wooden floors are becoming common:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#27
post #3

When the hallway is on fire and the only option is the stairs behind you, I really doubt you'll care about the space 'wasted' on them. And in response to Grenfell, the argument is tenants don't like fire drills; just wow. Eventually everyone forgets the reason for regulations...is there a named law for this phenomenon?

Is this basically subsidizing a slightly higher survival rate for a relatively few number of fires with a significant loss of space for everyone?

Im not sure if I am reading your comment right, but if you're offering a choice of less space or higher survival...

I mean, think of all the wasted space and weight having 8 exit doors on a airplane; they don't crash often

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#28
The Slate article doesn't directly state this but does mention that many of the safety rules have been in place for decades - some since the 1940s. Presumably - construction materials + fire fighting methods have improved dramatically in that time so buildings are much safer now.

I dont think its unreasonable to want very safe buildings but clear that by the rules staying the same means they are using a different risk calculation then when they were created.

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#29
post #3

When the hallway is on fire and the only option is the stairs behind you, I really doubt you'll care about the space 'wasted' on them. And in response to Grenfell, the argument is tenants don't like fire drills; just wow. Eventually everyone forgets the reason for regulations...is there a named law for this phenomenon?

Is this basically subsidizing a slightly higher survival rate for a relatively few number of fires with a significant loss of space for everyone?

yeah. it is. but only in the same way that the prohibition of tetraethyl lead merely subsidized a slightly smaller amount of brain damage for relatively few children at the significant cost of the cheapest anti-knock agent known to mankind

seriously, who is pushing this weird anti-fire-code agenda and why is it in slate

Re: Could housing be cheaper and better if we stop building so many staircases?

#30

> there’s no evidence that Americans and Canadians are any safer from structure fires than our neighbors around the world Except, you know, all the tenants above the first floor scrambling for their lives on a single stairwell.

Why not fire escapes?
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