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Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

utcc.utoronto.ca

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Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#421
post #122

I would really say that "running your own email" is a set of things that can be done independently: - Getting your own domain and using a provider such as fastmail or proton is a first step that gives you lots of security fom arbitrary. Because you own the doorstep, you can change provider without having to inform all your contacts of the move. You're also more secure from unilateral moves from your provider. -Hostin…

FWIW, someone is still reading your email. The owner of the infrastructure of your message recipients. If you've gone through the trouble of hosting your own email to avoid Google harvesting your messages, but you're exchanging emails with someone whose email is hosted by Google, then your emails are still being harvested and/or are harvestable.

True. But at least, you went out of your way to not inflict this to your recipients, should they wish to avoid this harvest. You made your part of trying to avoid this. You did your part to weaken this argument. Someone has to break the vicious circle.

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#422

If I have business outcomes that are dependent on people receiving my emails, it's difficult for me to be in a situation where the other person may need to, at some point, be told that they aren't getting my emails because I'm on some kind of "hipster email system" which they are no doubt going to perceive it to be. They're probably going to wonder why they are wasting their time with me when I can't even get somethi…

Hipster mail system. Also known as "mail like we've done it the last 4 decades". Strange!

Also known as "God damn it Bob just make a gmail account we're trying to run a business here."

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#423
I strongly agree on the point that running your own email service in 2021 is a pain in the a*s.

I strongly disagree on the motivations given by the article (the service you provide will never be on par with Google/Microsoft). This is plain false. There's plenty of webmail clients that look as modern as a Google/Microsoft UI. I even find the Outlook UI to be more primitive and spartan than many open-source UIs.

If running a mail server in 2021 is painful, that's because cloud giants have built a small mafia that, using the excuse of spam protection, excludes anything that doesn't come from a handful of mail services, period.

I used to have my own @mydomain.com mail server back in the golden age of the Internet, with mydomain.com pointing to my sitting in my closet. At some point, around a decade ago, mails sent from there started being refused - Spamhaus really doesn't like SMTP servers with dynamic IPs.

Fair enough. Back then I migrated my home server to a Linode instance. It worked for a while, but then even those emails started being sent back by some providers.

Fair enough - I thought. In theory anybody could still rent a Linode instance, buy a domain name, set up their mail server, and spam the world.

So I moved @mydomain.com under my managed (paid) ProtonMail account, installed a ProtonMail bridge on my server, and forwarded emails this way.

This should be alright, isn't it? I'm paying for a Linode instance connected to my name and surname. I'm paying for a domain name connected to my name and surname. I'm paying for a ProtonMail account linked to my name and surname. What prevents me from sending emails from my own server, using my own domain, my own logic and my own rules? There are so many ways to get back to me as a person in case of abuse, so the risk of spam should be low, right?

Unfortunately, filthy Microsoft thinks differently. Any email sent to @live.com, @outlook.com, @hotmail.com etc. gets sent back, blocked by Microsoft's spam filters. Even if it's sent through a legitimate paid domain name, from a legitimately purchased cloud service, through an account connected to a legitimate and paid ProtonMail account.

So eventually I've resorted to Mailgun to deliver my notifications.

Do you see the sad irony of this situation? Owning a domain, a cloud server and linking your account to a legitimate mail provider is no longer sufficient for you to deliver emails. If you don't want to use a Google/Microsoft/Apple account, then you have to pay extra bucks for a service like Mailgun, whose sole purpose is to do what SMTP servers have been able to do (for free) for the past 5 decades.

So, in a nutshell, running a mail service in 2021 is not difficult because it's hard to set up or it can't compete with the major players. It's difficult because a small mafia of cloud providers have done their best to make it difficult and force you either to use their services, or spend money for doing something that people have been doing for free for decades.

Email was supposed to be an open protocol, and barriers to set up your server used to be low. That's no longer the case. With the excuse of greater security and less spam, a small bunch of companies has built a criminal organization that has turned email into a closed standard, with Google and Microsoft alone running more than half of the traffic in US and Europe.

Shame on us all for giving up such an inalienable right of the Internet without even attempting a fight!

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hipster mail system. Also known as "mail like we've done it the last 4 decades". Strange!

I think the commenter was trying to prove that point. It's not a hipster email system, but non-technical folks will perceive it as such.

Correct

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#425

If I have business outcomes that are dependent on people receiving my emails, it's difficult for me to be in a situation where the other person may need to, at some point, be told that they aren't getting my emails because I'm on some kind of "hipster email system" which they are no doubt going to perceive it to be. They're probably going to wonder why they are wasting their time with me when I can't even get somethi…

Well that's just because you're presenting it completely incorrectly. It's their system that is misclassifying their email, not you being on a "hipster" email system, whatever that means. At no point is it your system's fault so don't even begin to start phrasing it as such.

Non-technical folks will just tell you that they don't have this problem with anyone else, and will likely get more annoyed when you present it that way. Since it's 2021, depending on which part of the world you are in, you may even be accused of "gaslighting".

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#426
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internet was meant to be decentralized. Lets leave it this way. I am running my server for 15 years and couldn't be more happy with "artisan" infrastructure. I don't want or use webmail (sluggish), I don't want others fingerpoking my emails, I don't want various compulsory registration systems (like requiring my phone number out of """security""" reasons like google), giving others the ability to kill my account and…

The internet was meant to be used by people who knew how the internet worked. Herein lies the problem. This might sound like gatekeeping, and maybe it is. When these systems were designed, they were not designed to be used by everyone. They were not designed to be commodities that are bought and sold, with the most valuable trinket available being the attention of the user. But this is where we are. Few are capable o…

> Decentralization limits monetization of anything, so that is going to be a non-starter for investment of resources. Unless you are trying to have your infrastructure survive a nuclear war, no one is going to provide the means to build anything big unless you can sell it or the users of it.

I'll go further: centralised systems can emulate decentralised systems, but not vice versa. Thus, ultimately, the only USP of a decentralised system is that it is decentralised for the sake of being decentralised, and nobody cares much about that. Centralisation is inevitable, and wins out every time.

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#427
The best way I have found to run an email server is to use it to receive emails only and to get your own emails out send them directly through a provider like Amazon SES. Now you can create all of the email accounts with as much space as you want but still get your emails delivered. It is not ideal but the only practical way to run a small email system.

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#428

If I have business outcomes that are dependent on people receiving my emails, it's difficult for me to be in a situation where the other person may need to, at some point, be told that they aren't getting my emails because I'm on some kind of "hipster email system" which they are no doubt going to perceive it to be. They're probably going to wonder why they are wasting their time with me when I can't even get somethi…

I see it the opposite way. I send a business email, it does not arrive, or it arrives after 20 minutes. When using the company's gmail, I cannot get any diagnostics - is it stuck somewhere in the queue? on their side, on our side? is it being greylisted? when will the server retry and the greylisting will allow the email to pass? is the target mailbox full? was there a TLS problem with the primary MX server and the backup one was used? When using my "hipster solution" (actually Postfix) I just grep their domain in mail.log and immediately see what has happened; I can use postqueue to retry or remove the email from the queue, etc.

AFAIK there is some interface in business gsuite, available only to domain admin and not regular users, where a limited subset of the above can be done.

The same applies for inbound email too -- they claim they are trying to send me an email, or getting an email from something like a network printer fails. Good luck trying to find inbound email logs for the entire gmail.

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#429
post #122

I would really say that "running your own email" is a set of things that can be done independently: - Getting your own domain and using a provider such as fastmail or proton is a first step that gives you lots of security fom arbitrary. Because you own the doorstep, you can change provider without having to inform all your contacts of the move. You're also more secure from unilateral moves from your provider. -Hostin…

you could argue dmarc, dkim, and SPF were all invented as barriers to entry for small mail servers as the majority of internet SPF is permissive and the majority of DKIM is misconfigured. imo, senderbase and other reputation/policy proprietary shit-lists used by anyone with a Symantec or Cisco email product only served to convert the unwashed to a corporate license as most of these mechanical turks just paid the same…

How hard is it to actually get mail delivered?

I have the dumb idea of trying to make SMTP as cheap as http. Make spam expensive using proof of stake.

I find it frustrating I have to pay Amazon to send text for me. I was going to setup my own SMTP server but it seemed like too much work.

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you could argue dmarc, dkim, and SPF were all invented as barriers to entry for small mail servers as the majority of internet SPF is permissive and the majority of DKIM is misconfigured. imo, senderbase and other reputation/policy proprietary shit-lists used by anyone with a Symantec or Cisco email product only served to convert the unwashed to a corporate license as most of these mechanical turks just paid the same…

How hard is it to actually get mail delivered? I have the dumb idea of trying to make SMTP as cheap as http. Make spam expensive using proof of stake. I find it frustrating I have to pay Amazon to send text for me. I was going to setup my own SMTP server but it seemed like too much work.

Check out the following pieces of software — it’s never been easier!

Maddy (https://maddy.email/)

Postal (https://docs.postalserver.io/)

Chasquid (https://blitiri.com.ar/p/chasquid/)

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